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Thread: Eliminating AP

  1. #1

    Default Eliminating AP

    I've been tinkering with a system that would eliminate AP from all weapons, not just missile ones, since AP causes units to be overpowered against highly armoured adversaries and underpowered against unarmoured ones. I haven't tested it yet, but here's what I've got so far. Let me know if you have any ideas for improving the system.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2
    Lord of Shadows's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    Stupid question: What is AP?

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  4. #4
    Mank's Avatar Dormouse of Hader
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    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    I think you're certainly on the right track in terms of balancing your changes well. If you just took out the AP it would probably leave some units in the lurch, so I like that you're trying to find a way to balance them out afterwards.

    I'd be careful about a couple of units like the voulge, as that is a substantial boost, though I'm sure the attack delay will mitigate this a bit. Most of the proposed changes looked well balanced to me off the cuff, but some tests in custom battles would probably be a good idea.

    My 2 cents on the changes at the bottom:
    -I don't think pole-axes should get a high attack value than 2h-axes
    -I like the idea of war hammers having higher attack and lower defense (a more cumbersome weapon)

  5. #5
    Andytheplatypus's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    I removed all ap from my version of edu balancing. Really is much better.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    Can you post a list of your values and any other changes you've made?

    "that is a substantial boost"

    That boost is mainly against unarmoured opponents. Against heavily armoured cavalry, it's still roughly 1:2 attack to armour. Perhaps 15 or 30 could be added to attack delays so unarmoured opponents don't get massacred too badly.

    The poleaxe I'm thinking of leaving at 12 with the 2-handed axe at 13. I'm wondering most about voulges and halberds. I'm also considering reducing the bonus vs cavalry gained by non-phalanx polearms. Maybe +4 would be enough. I also want to reduce the bonus that one-handed spears get to something along these lines:

    Peasant militia: mount_effect +1
    Militia: mount_effect +2
    Average: mount_effect +3
    Superior, elite, exceptional: mount_effect +4

    Or maybe

    Militia: mount_effect +1
    Average: mount_effect +2
    Superior: mount_effect +3
    Elite, exceptional: mount_effect +4

    Or even

    Average: mount_effect +1
    Superior: mount_effect +2
    Elite, exceptional: mount_effect +3

  7. #7
    Andytheplatypus's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    That was months ago when I did it and I sadly dont have the files anymore. I did it only for early era so I didnt deal with any pole axe type weapons. I basically just removed ap and set the damage similar to sword style units. Its going to take a lot of testing to get the values you want so its balanced.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    After some more studying of the issue, I have arrived at these stats (attack, charge, defense, attack delay):

    axe (2H) 13 4 4 90

    halberd 14 5 5 105

    billhook 11 5 4 90

    voulge 15 5 4 120

    poleaxe 12 5 5 90


    Perhaps we could add 15 to the attack delay of one-handed previously-AP weapons and 30 to the two-handed ones. I'm hoping PB and some people with knowledge of weapons will weigh in on this, because I think the game stands to gain significantly from the elimination of AP.

    Does anyone know why the attack delay values are in intervals of 15 in RC?

  9. #9
    Mihajlo's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    Quote Originally Posted by k/t View Post
    Does anyone know why the attack delay values are in intervals of 15 in RC?
    IIRC 15 is the smallest portion that engine recognize as a - or + on delay. Perhaps someone can confirm this...

    btw I tried to find my edu's with no ap, but unfortunately no luck :/ from what I remember I only leave 2h axe and halberds with ap, rest I tweak with attack delay and animations (not that much, I needed more time for animations but I had non sadly, that is why abandon that small project because you need a lot of testing...)

    For me game gives more realistic battles without ap, but changing some animations and fine tuning is a must, stats in edu are necessary but it is 2/3 of the balancing...

  10. #10
    Apani's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    This project seems abandoned, but do you think I could use these modifications nevertheless? I'm rather interested.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    Yeah, sure.

    Perhaps maces should keep AP, since blunt weapons aren't as effective against poorly armoured opponents as bladed weapons.

  12. #12
    Apani's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    Thanks, I've tested it on a group of elite Voulge soldiers, and they performed as you intended.

    That sounds like a good idea. Have you yet decided the definitive values for 1H Weapons?
    Last edited by Apani; January 05, 2014 at 12:41 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    I haven't done any work on this since I posted those values.

    I'm still trying to make my BC submod work.

  14. #14
    Ichon's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    I've been experimenting with removing AP but I can't seem to find a satisfactory balance for 1 handed blunt weapons- mostly maces.

    Raising attack stat and delay to maximum for 2 handed axes/polearms etc and removing AP works ok as well no AP on missiles seems best.

    However 1 handed blunt weapons without AP having a higher attack smash 1 handed sword units unless the attack delay is nearly max but then perform poorly against heavily armored units in comparison to 1 handed swords.

    Are there new animations for maces in RC 2.0 complete version that PB uploaded?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    I don't know if the mace animations are different or not.

    I will have to do some tests too.

    What's the highest attack delay the engine will accept?

  16. #16
    Ichon's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    Seems to be in 100s but I haven't figured precisely where. Generally the max I've tried is 130-150 but due to different animation speeds that has greater or lesser effects depending on the animation or just because as PB pointed out the attack delay does not actually correspond to 1/10 second intervals but maybe a % of the speed of the animation?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    Highest attack that is actually implemented in the code is about 63-65 from memory. No AP for any missile weapon in RC2.0, its restricted purely to certain melee weapons. Many new factors with melee weapons are now considered, for an example consider the modelling of a heavy chopping weapon such as a falchion as compared to an arming sword as compared to a 1H mace - I think the balance is now pretty good. Any benefit a weapon has is typically matched by a corresponding weakness in a different tactical situation, so you need to be a little more careful in choosing your battles. And yes new anim sets for many weapon types including some small changes to the mace set.

  18. #18
    Ichon's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    Highest delay is what? Highest attack stat I've seen in other mods is 55 but attack delay is always below 180 but I've seen it set as high as 160 but I think that is not registered much difference once get above 100.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    stat_sec 65, 3, grand_bombard_shot, 375, 30, siege_missile, artillery_gunpowder, blunt, none, 0, 1

    Attack delay has some effect but its hard to quantify. As I said in my Memory Editing suggestions:
    3) According to the EDU, the attack delay value in stat_pri gives: ; Min delay between attacks (in 1/10th of a second).
    In practice it is not implemented like this at all and the effect of the attack delay value is nebulous at best - it would be nice if it worked as described.

    I think highest value in RC2.0 is 135 or 150, which would be some kind of polearm unit, probably halberd.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Eliminating AP

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtYKkwpx1gw

    This is further reason to convert bladed weapons (axes) to non-AP while keeping warhammers and maces AP. If we were to start tinkering with the system, that is.

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