The Roman Empire vs Han Dynasty China

[BritPatriot1815]

This is a purely hypothetical situation based on a possible real-life event.

The Roman Expansion East was hampered by the Parthian Empire, notably at Carrhae, and the Chinese Expansion West was too hindered by the Kushan Empire and these two Empires kept these two superpowers from directly colliding with each other. There is a hypothesis that around 36 BC, some Roman prisoners captured by the Parthians were displaced to the east to an area that was taken over by the Xiongnu and hired as mercenaries, and at the battle of Zhizhi there is a Chinese account of seeing a 'fish-scale formation' advancing towards the Chinese. These were too taken prisoner and were finally settled in a place called Liqian (pronounced like 'Legion').

Hypothesis aside, this made me wonder, what would have happened if these two superpowers collided? The scale of the conflict, the casualties/cost, the political and economic implements involved and ultimately who would be likely to win. Personally my money is on the Romans but it would a huge sludge for both sides but I'm happy to hear other ideas

[iqwerty]

Pretty much depends on the commander and the conditions. Both empires had their highs and lows, heroes and idiots. Neither had a decisive technical advantage.

[Spartan999]

ugh I am pretty sure there is a thread about this in about every other history website in fact I am pretty sure there is some here on this site too:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...e-vs-Han-China
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...vs-Han-dynasty

The general agreement was that Han had better Cav and archers, while Rome has better infantry (although Han fans would disagree).

In both case it really got nowhere for the most part.

[JackDionne]

East did meet west as a matter of fact according to “Ancient Warfare” magazine VOL VII Issue #1.



The battle was called “The Battle of Uzgen” and “The Battle of Yucheng” they fought the Ferghanan who were greek I believe.


Very cool stuff. Excellent Magazine.

[jsully16]

Which one had Lu Bu?

THAT ONE!

[BroskiDerpman]

Please no, not these threads... I can smell the Roman fans coming.... Oh the horror!

[lemondude]

This is a purely hypothetical situation based on a possible real-life event.

The Roman Expansion East was hampered by the Parthian Empire, notably at Carrhae, and the Chinese Expansion West was too hindered by the Kushan Empire and these two Empires kept these two superpowers from directly colliding with each other. There is a hypothesis that around 36 BC, some Roman prisoners captured by the Parthians were displaced to the east to an area that was taken over by the Xiongnu and hired as mercenaries, and at the battle of Zhizhi there is a Chinese account of seeing a 'fish-scale formation' advancing towards the Chinese. These were too taken prisoner and were finally settled in a place called Liqian (pronounced like 'Legion').

Hypothesis aside, this made me wonder, what would have happened if these two superpowers collided? The scale of the conflict, the casualties/cost, the political and economic implements involved and ultimately who would be likely to win. Personally my money is on the Romans but it would a huge sludge for both sides but I'm happy to hear other ideas

Realistically? Let me put it this way, if one of these two empire tries to make it to the other and there are no enemies in between, which won't happen, and there are water, which is rare cause there are deserts, and they have enough money and such, which is also unrealistic as that expenditure is huge, it cost an arm and a leg to conquer Dacia, imagine just going to China or vice versa.

Still more than half would die, flee or other. Not to mention with no map, no language, it be a miracle to even find each other.

By the time you reach the other side, it be a no contest.

[Kaiserina Kratos]

If this scenario happens. The "invading" empire loses as it would cost a lot to support a war too far away from home. It would wear down the economy, drain the manpower, and cause rebellions and uprisings for nothing.

[xjlxking]

Honesltly, the Han has a lot of advantages if you consider them on their average power. However, Rome at it's height in terms of economic, military power beats Han at it's height.

[sanbourne]

Rome because Rome.

[BroskiDerpman]

the asians are weird

Their battlestyle is too complicated,too much relying on a thousand of things,while the european stile is more brutal and direct.All in on the romans,would crush any asian especially the chinese

You are making fun of yourself and Europeans. Plus you are making false assumptions that the Europeans are more simpletons. Why would the Chinese especially be crushed when at the time of the Han they were pretty powerful compared to the other nations in that region. The Xiongnu were mostly driven away and most likely some branch of them moved all the way to Europe and threatened Rome itself. So you would call Flavius Aetius the man who won Chalons simple minded? I find his tactics quite interesting with infantry on flanks and cavalry in the center to lure the Huns in.
Plus if an "complicated" tactic is efficient at winning why should you abandon it for a brute force method?
You're just using stereotypes aye? If you're saying Sun Tzu is too complicated I doubt your knowledge.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I'd say the best Han generals are Cao Cao and Han Xin against say Julius Caesar and Scipio?

[Andreius Pretorianus]

You are making fun of yourself and Europeans. Plus you are making false assumptions that the Europeans are more simpletons. Why would the Chinese especially be crushed when at the time of the Han they were pretty powerful compared to the other nations in that region. The Xiongnu were mostly driven away and most likely some branch of them moved all the way to Europe and threatened Rome itself. So you would call Flavius Aetius the man who won Chalons simple minded? I find his tactics quite interesting with infantry on flanks and cavalry in the center to lure the Huns in.
Plus if an "complicated" tactic is efficient at winning why should you abandon it for a brute force method?
You're just using stereotypes aye? If you're saying Sun Tzu is too complicated I doubt your knowledge.

I didn t say europeans are simpleminded,I wanted to say they are more...viable,while the asians theorise very much,the europeans are more viable in their actions.

[Kraut]

a place called Liqian (pronounced like 'Legion').

To my best knowledge (when it comes to pronounciation of Chinese), "Li-Qian" is indeed pronounced quite like "Legion" is... in English!
But again, to my best knowledge, neither the Romans nor the Chinese spoke English back then.
So probably the Latin pronounciation of "Legion" would be different from the English pronounciation of "legion" and would thus sound different than the proper Chinese pronounciation of "Li-Qian"?
Just my two cents...

[Wothan]

China
Because all I learned from Dynasty Warriors is that almost every chinese commander can beat up to 500 men per battle single handed


/sarcasm

[Babri]

the asians are weird

Their battlestyle is too complicated,too much relying on a thousand of things,while the european stile is more brutal and direct.All in on the romans,would crush any asian especially the chinese

That is really stupid of you to say & generalize it in such a manner. Many times the Europeans got their butts kicked by Asians badly in battles. Have a good look at Ottoman & Mongol conquests of Europe.

[O'Hea]

I honestly don't know much about the Han military's organization at its height. I know more about the Three Kingdoms period, when battles hinged more on heavy cavalry from rich military households and infantry took a bit of a backseat. But both Rome and the Han could field large, disciplined armies and were accomplished military engineers- assuming comparable numbers and decent commanders it would be a close fight.

the asians are weird

Their battlestyle is too complicated,too much relying on a thousand of things,while the european stile is more brutal and direct.All in on the romans,would crush any asian especially the chinese

Ever read a military treatise, from any culture, in any language? They're all complicated. This is a vague, unsupported, and completely subjective assessment.

[xjlxking]

That is really stupid of you to say & generalize it in such a manner. Many times the Europeans got their butts kicked by Asians badly in battles. Have a good look at Ottoman & Mongol conquests of Europe.

... Mongols also destroyed China. In fact, they destroyed it without much seige.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Lots of siege actually, there was only ever a decisive battle against the Jin but all other operations against Xia, Jin, Song and Yunnan were sieges. It's just that the Mongols rocked at sieges so much and were able to win them all.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

I guess you have to first compare population, economy, logistics and political system, unit types are just a secondary tie breaker.

Rome would probably lose because of the lack of stability of it's political system, an emperor could not trust such a massive invasion army in the hands of anybody else so he would personally have to lead the war against China. Whilst the emperor is away with the legions an usurpator may rise and throw the empire into civil war. The Chinese emperor with his Mandate of Heaven did not have the same problems.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sparta could probably have pulled it off though since it is known that 300 Spartans is enough to beat all the hordes of Asia