Athens
Athens
Sparta
Epirus
Miles
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
Athens
Call me Ishmael
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
I hope CA takes cues from Europa Barbarorum with the evolution of heavier thorakitai, especially in the very late stages showing perhaps Roman influence. For example, abandoning the linothorax for a shirt of chain mail.
Last edited by Roma_Victrix; July 08, 2013 at 03:20 AM.
Foederatus
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
Can't vote yet, but I'm having a tough time with this decision as well. Not a 'fanboy' by all means but I'm leaning towards Sparta. However, I think I'll try out a few custom sea battles to see if I can handle the new dynamics. If i feel comfortable enough, I may do an Athens campaign with a strong naval component.
Domesticus
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
I prefer athen. I will try to gain colonies.
Campidoctor
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
I think the phrase "athenian fanboy" or "spartan fanboy" is merely an excuse not to read or consider other peoples posts. Regarding the Peloponnese, Sparta is a plausible choice, both historically and commercially. We all know the commercial reasons (Spartan myth/mirage perpetuated forever) but the critics seem to ignore the historical rationality behind the choice.
Firstly, at the game start timeframe, Sparta is more an actor on the international scene of Ancient Europe than the Achean League or any other Peloponnesian city. King Areus represents the last time Sparta had such extra-Peloponnesian pretensions. He is constantly forging alliances with other Greek cities and the greater Hellenistic empires to battle Macedon. Secondly, Spartiates are still being trained though admittedly in far, far fewer numbers than classical times but these hubristic, aristocratic warriors are still there (I love the wag who stated that there literally are only 300 Spartans by the 270s). Thirdly, the plausibility argument in fact strengthens Sparta's case because we are talking "what ifs" and "counter factuals" in a gaming/simulation environment.
Let us take Epirus for example. From my limited knowledge of that kingdom, it is one leader who brings it to the forefront of the powers in the Med, namely Phyrrus. It that instance, one formidable leader made a difference - without his genius you would have had quite a different story (bear in mind this is based on my general ignorance of Epriote society so there may be other reasons). Now, put us in charge of Areus and perhaps we can succeed where he failed and create a Spartan empire.
I really do not see the problem with this other than an irrational hatred of the Spartan myth, which is understandable. But if you base your logic on 300 then you are as bad as the fanboys who base their enthusiasm on the same movie. I am sorry but the fact is that Sparta was still around during the game time frame; still producing Spartiates; still up to mischief that disturbed the sleep of the great. Not for much longer of course - after Areus it is downhill all the way until we get to Kleomenes III, in terms of military history.
Last edited by Durnaug; July 08, 2013 at 08:19 AM.
Praepositus
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
I agree with this. There is a stronger argument for Sparta than Athens or Epirus as a playable faction based on the historical situation in 270 BC. Didn't see "the 300" nor will I so I don't have that anti-Sparta rage.Originally Posted by Durnaug
My major disappointment though is that there aren't more regions in Greece to represent the struggles that went on there throughout the early to mid game. No Aetolian league...no Boetia...no Achean league...just sad
Last edited by Huberto; July 08, 2013 at 09:05 AM.
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
Well, by the time of Agis IV. there were only 700 Spartiates so it's not that big of a stretch to say that there weren't that many left. That doesn't mean that they didn't try to still be an international player (even when many actions consisted of being mercenaries for wealthier and more powerful states so they could generate income after the loss of Messenia), but they didn't even manage to hold of Pyrrhus from conquering Sparta without the help of all their womanfolk and and Macedonia. They didn't even manage to regain control of the Peloponnesos. Now the real situation is far too complicated to even attempt to simulate in a game where Greece consists of four provinces and cities, so I think Sparta is as good as any other choice for playable factions down there. And if you have the choice between putting Sparta or the Achean League or Korinth or whomever in control of that region, why not take the iconic faction that everyone with even a cursory knowledge in ancient history knows? I hope it will be pretty hard to start as Sparta, and that you will feel the severe manpower constraints (limiting the number of available 'elite' Spartiate units perhaps?), but I for one will definitely play them and try to regain at least what was lost in the previous century. It's clear that this game cannot simulate the situation as it was, but this approximation is all right by me.
Campidoctor
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
Well, the killer argument for the "no spartans athenians" brigade would be that no central or southern Greek city is important enough to be included in a game couched at such a "grand strategic" level. I would call this the "no formerly-classical greek Polis" argument. However, CA decided to plonk a city in the Peloponnese and Sparta is their choice. Given this gaming decision there are many reaons why Sparta is a plausible choice.I agree with this. There is a stronger argument for Sparta than Athens or Epirus as a playable faction based on the historical situation in 270 BC. Didn't see "the 300" so I don't have that rage.
My major disappointment though is that there aren't more regions in Greece to represent the struggles that went on there throughout the early to mid game. No Aetolian league...no Boetia...no Achean league...just sad
More importantly, for me at any rate, because the Classical Greek polis figures so largely in ancient literature and (even more potently) in our collective memory, it would be madness to exclude them. So CA are trying to steer a middle ground and p*ssing off a lot of people
Campidoctor
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
Perfectly put.
Praepositus
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
And here I was hoping for a Peloponnesian war expansionMore importantly, for me at any rate, because the Classical Greek polis figures so largely in ancient literature and (even more potently) in our collective memory, it would be madness to exclude them. So CA are trying to steer a middle ground and p*ssing off a lot of people
Campidoctor
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
Apologies for using the "Phyrrus" howler - I was too lazy to look up the correct spelling. Now I have no excuse.Indeed, and it's also either "Pyrrhus", "Pyrrhos", "Pyrrus" or "Pyrros". Not Phyrrus or Phyrros, there's no "h" next to the initial "P".
The "h" after the "r" is optional, and the choice between "u" and "
Campidoctor
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
That would be brilliant! And there is no reason why CA (unless it is not commercially viable) cannot zoom down to that level - remember the Kingdoms expansion set on the British & Irish Isles?And here I was hoping for a Peloponnesian war expansion
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
I love Spartan culture, so probably them. [Scottish accent] I want to destroy those Athenian boy-lovers! [/Scottish Accent]
Campidoctor
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
I'll get my coat...
Tiro
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
I love sparta for historical reasons but because i respect and admire pyrrhus I voted epirus. Athens is to reliant on mercs and navy for my liking.
Praeses
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
Mhm
I prefered this for a greek culture pack
Crete,Rhodos,epirus
anyways voted epirus
Veritas Temporis Filia
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
It's funny because the Spartans also made love to boys.
Semisalis
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
Very true, and this is a perfect time period to have a last attempt to revitalize this culture and save it from Ruin. Hence the whole point of the game is to start you out in a certain period of history, and allow you to change the future events that would follow. I think it's also significant to mention that Sparta is the one who finally put an end to Pyrros of Epirus and not Rome.I am sorry but the fact is that Sparta was still around during the game time frame; still producing Spartiates; still up to mischief that disturbed the sleep of the great. Not for much longer of course - after Areus it is downhill all the way until we get to Kleomenes III, in terms of military history.
Actually they didn't, and there's strong evidence supporting that they did not.It's funny because the Spartans also made love to boys.
http://elysiumgates.com/~helena/Sexuality.htmlNo myth about Sparta is as persistent and controversial as the claim that pederasty and homosexuality dominated Spartan society. Even highly reputable historians such as Paul Cartledge subscribe to this theory. However, the evidence against it is, in my opinion, compelling.
Xenophon, the only historian with firsthand experience of the agoge (his sons attended it!), states explicitly: "… [Lycurgus] … laid down that in Sparta lovers should refrain from molesting boys, just as much as parents avoid having intercourse with their children or brothers with their sisters." It is hard to find a more definitive statement than this, and from the most credible source. To dismiss this evidence simply because it does not suit preconceived ideas is arrogant.
Xenophon adds: "It does not surprise me, however, that some people do not believe this, since in many cities the laws do not oppose lusting after boys." This is the crux of the matter. All of our written sources on Sparta come from these other cities, where pederasty was rampant. In short, the bulk of the written record on Sparta stems from men who could not imagine a world without it. But then, they also could not imagine women who were educated, physically fit, and economically powerful, who were not also licentious and lewd. Modern readers ought to recognize that pederasty is not inherent in society – particularly not in a society where women are well integrated.
My position is supported by another ancient authority, Aristotle, who blamed all of Sparta's ills on the fact that the women were in control of things – a fact that he attributed to thelack of homosexuality in Spartan society generally. In this Aristotle exhibits an astonishing appreciation of psychology. Modern research conclusively shows that male victims of child abuse generally grow into misogynous men. The status of women in Athens fits this pattern perfectly, while the status of women in Sparta completely contradicts – indeed, refutes – the thesis that Spartan men were systematically subjected to sexual abuse by their elders as children. (An excellent discussion of child abuse in ancient Greece can be found in Enid Bloch's "Sex Between Men and Boys in Classical Greece: Was it Education for Citizenship or Child Abuse?," in Journal of Men's Studies, January 2001.)
Last edited by Steel*Faith; July 08, 2013 at 03:40 PM.
Be on alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. Let all that you do be done in Love. (1 Corinthians 16:13)
Hva i helvete?
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
Good to see good common sense taking hold of this thread rather than the unreasonable hate the other Greek threads have been getting. Reps given where reps are due.
Re: Three Greek States, One game.
Well that's disappointing.
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