Shield Wall v. Phalanx

[MrT785479]

I now understand why only a few greek hoplites have the shield wall (elite hoplites and spartans). I didn't get this before and so I decided to give it to all of my hoplites, and now they are tremendously unbalanced against the macedonian phalanxes. What happens is if you put the hoplites on guard mode and on shield wall, as soon as the end of the sarissas get to them, they start inching foreward. It looks like suicide at first but then I realized that my hoplites had only lost 2 people by the time they had pushed through all five rows of spears. What followed was basically a slaughter, because the pezhetairoi are worthless in close combat (as they should be). I have heard before that the romans (I think) had used something similar to this, where the front line would push apart the spear tips with their shields so the men behind could rush in, but if I doubt that it was really this effective. I'm just curious as to what other people's thoughts are on this and if there is a way I can keep my men with shield wall, but not make them uber against phalanxes.

[JoeyJubb]

Thinking about it, the sheild wall must have been uber effective against phalanxes when you consider that most phalangites have pikes at least 12 feet long. Simple physics would tell you if you were able to push the tip of the spear to one side the guy at the other end wouldn't have much chance pushing it back against you, espicially if he was in a tight formation - like a lever.

[MrT785479]

True, but at the same time, having my men attack a phalanx from the front with spears that are only about a quarter of the length and winning by a large margin without any support just doesn't seem right. Also, if the greek phalanxes could have defeated the Macedonian phalanxes that easily, then the greek style would have been more prominent and maybe even replaced the Macedonian phalanx, and if I'm correct, that wasn't the case.

[The Walrus]

Wrong. You forget about the Macedonians cavalry. They used the phalanx as a shield. The Greeks sometimes ( a lot) used them as the sword.

[King_Azzole]

Not to mention "It was not Phillip who conquered Greece, it was Phillips gold!"

I think in many ways traditional Hoplites were superior to Pikemen. They were more manueverable, and did far better in close quarters. I think the game accurately displays the true warfare that occured. The problem is the AI is too dumb to swing its Companians around the flanks and hit your Hoplites from the rear. I am sure it's not flanking with Hypaspitai either.

[The Walrus]

True. They had better armor. But the Macedonians won because they had cavalry supiority.

[century x]

this may be a little off topic. That's y alexander beat the crap out of the persians, he used his cavarly to his advantage. Without the cavarly I don't think he would have won. Sorry had to say this.

[Darkarbiter]

Alexander also beat the indian armies which did not rely on cavlry. I seriously doubt that the greeks could have done so as well. Think about this for a second 2 units of 240 men. One a phalangite one a hoplite. Even if the hoplites were able to push the phalangites back due to superior strength they were in tight formation so it would have been impossible to push the spears anywhere usefull that wouldnt push them back or hurt them in some way (apart from
up but concidering the spears weight+the guy on the other end this would be impossible). So therefore even if you can push the spear to a place that couldnt hurt you you would not be able to simply dodge through the spears and get through so the sheild wall is highly inaccurate.

The only exception would be if the phalangites were fighting uphill. Regardless of all this hoplites were allready in a sheild wall and even if you could maybe become impervious to phalangites attacks from the front you could not simply push past the weight of the spears and the guys on the other end easily.

[The Walrus]

Alexander also beat the Persians because their infantry were weak too. Also, Darius was a coward and ran away when Alexander charged against him causing his whole army to route even though he had numerical superiority. What is that quote, something like "Valor is superior to numbers" didn't Vegetius say that? I forget.

[century x]

TRUE. Darius was a coward. Even though i'm persian myself I take pride in my history, I find he was a really really really bad commander. His infantry may have been weak, but used properly, he would have kick alexander's ass from the start. But u know he didn't IDIOT. i wish I can just slap him, and say U SUCK.

I know having more men than the enemy doesn't mean crap. It all depends on the commander on how he uses this advantage.

[The Walrus]

But numbers do help........

[Darkarbiter]

Regarless the sheild wall was ment for use vs non phalangites (BI has no phalangites or hoplites) and its portrayal in game is abysmal and inaccurate so i think programming them to have it is stupid.

[The Walrus]

The only thing historical for it is that hoplites use the overhand attack so it looks realistic.

[Ubiquitous]

@ MrT785479 - I'm glad you mentioned this. Maybe it explains what I've seen from Carthage.

I normally play Roman but just started a campaign w/ Seleucids VH/VH. By 270 BC the Ptolemies have been reduced to 3 provinces - Rhodes, Maronia, & the province N. of Libya (forget the name ATM). All this time I was thinking the Seleucid phalanxes (w/ supporting archers & Hypaspistai) are almost unstoppable. In 273 BC my 3/4 stack (w/ Hetairoi, Xystophoroi & Indian elephants that Seleucids start with) rolls into the Nile valley and wipes em out.

Then enter the Carthaginians from Libya (I removed the RTR land blocks) w/ the Liby Phoenicians & Berber javelins. I knew something was up when I attacked a stack half my size and they didn't retreat. Hmm. Pretty brave little guys. Then I found out why.

After licking my wounds I can only guess that the Liby Phoenicians use the shield wall. The activity described by MrT785479 regarding his hoplites is exactly the behavior I've seen from the Liby Phoenicians. It's quite frightening to see your phalanxes get decimated by a numerically inferior opponent from the front, especially when the Liby Phoenician spears are about 1/4 as long as the Chalkaspides/Chrysaspides. Phalanxes often fold pretty quick from the side or back, but not the front. Not usually.

Flank or die.

[JoeyJubb]

I pretty much treat the Shield wall exactly like a Phalanx. I don't much like Phalanxes because of their immobility and general suckyness against sheild-walls - I really hope the Phalanx is beefed up a tad in RTR7.0...

[Exel]

How is this even supposed to work? I've installed the RTRPE 1.6 Full on a clean installation of RTW with 1.3 and 1.5 patches. Yet when I try to enable the "protective formation" on the Spartans or any other unit they simply spread out to regular loose formation. If they fight phalangites in the normal tight formation they will perform no different from vanilla, ie. they just wont get through the longer pikes. What have I missed?

[MrT785479]

Well, thanks to everyone for the replies. I'm still debating on whether or not to keep the shield wall. This is because while it is a good point that the spears have to go somewhere, it also seemed like once my men go in close enough that the pezhetairoi would switch to their swords, and I'm not talking about just the front line it was the entire formation. Also, thanks for correcting me, this is why I ask questions. In the end I'm just curious as to which is more historically accurate.

[The Walrus]

@Exel- you have to play it through the BI exe.

[mcantu]

How is this even supposed to work? I've installed the RTRPE 1.6 Full on a clean installation of RTW with 1.3 and 1.5 patches. Yet when I try to enable the "protective formation" on the Spartans or any other unit they simply spread out to regular loose formation. If they fight phalangites in the normal tight formation they will perform no different from vanilla, ie. they just wont get through the longer pikes. What have I missed?

You have to use the the BI.exe and press the 'F' key (special ability) and not the 'C' (Loose/Tight Formation)

[King_Azzole]

I would have ran too if I was Darius... Sitting atop a flimsy chariot with no weapon (I think he didn't) and just seeing this mad man of a Macedonian plowing through my lines to get to me. I would have ran for the hills.