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Thread: Tax income as a function of population and tax rate

  1. #1

    Default Tax income as a function of population and tax rate

    Hello community,

    what I am presenting you here are my interim results from my ongoing mathematical modelling of the tax system in TATW. While I didn't check it yet, I do believe this is nothing TATW specific, but applies to MII TW in general.
    First of, I can tell you this topic is huge. I hit on it a few years ago, but back in that time lacked the math skills to make any further progress on it. I will try to explain a bit what this is about, why it could become important, and how I got to a decent solution.

    So in the beginning, I was bothered by a simple question: "Should I set a higher or lower tax rate?", or better: "How long does the low tax rate need to surpass the gold income of a high tax rate through the raised population growth?"

    To determine this, I simply assumed that the tax was a per-capita tax, as it didn't seem to depend on any other factors than the tax rate and the population, and simply took the formula: Tax Income = Population * Tax Rate.
    So I wanted to know what "low tax rate", "normal tax rate", "high tax rate" and "very high tax rate" actually meant in units of money per capita per round; and started gathering data from in the game.

    I always sent the governors out of the settlement to eliminate their traits as a variable, and wrote down the population, tax income and set tax rate in that settlement in that round, for a few settlements. I first caluclated some really odd numbers for the tax rate, so I did it for a few more and found: Oh my god! It's not constant! There is no linear correlation between the population and the tax income.

    Many of you probably have noticed this already: if the population is higher, you don't get as much money per capita compared to a lower population, at the same set tax rate. But determinating the actual mathematical function of the tax income isn't that easy, and back then, I had no idea how to do it.

    Well, I came back to it a few weeks ago and started gathering larger amounts of data. As it stands now, I took all settlements that Gondor starts with, with the Expanded Map mod enabled - they are 17, 15 town type settlements and 2 castle type settlements. I sent out all the governors and wrote the population and tax income down for every of the four set tax rates in the towns, so I had 62 points of data.

    From this on, it goes quite easy. I made a diagram for the tax income as a function of the population, with 4 distinct sets of data (one for each tax rate), each with 15 points of data, using Excel. I made Excel give me the logarithmical Trendlines and their functions for each set of data (logarithmical function fits best by far, you can easily see in the diagram that it's a logarithmical function). I also made it give me a line that smoothly connects the point of data I had, to compare the two graphs. The trendline looks pretty good, so I rearranged the functions of the trendlines to only differ in one value, that I could assume the variable representing the tax rate in that function. The number was still a bit odd, but by further rearranging I could get it into a shape that is quite smooth from it's numbers, and easy to remember. So without further ado, the formula I got is:

    I = 400 * ( ln(P) - 4.4 ) / R , R out of { 2 ; 2.5 ; 3 ; 3.75 }

    Where I is the Income, P is the population, and R is 2 for very high, 2.5 for high, 3 for normal, and 3.75 for low tax rate.

    The formula does not give the exact values, it is approximative. But over all my gathered data, it has a mean realtive error of 1.23% which is practically nothing, and this function does not diverge from the actual values in any direction, so you can use it without hesitation.

    I still have to analyze and compare how the comulative tax incomes over many rounds behave with consideration of the population growth. You guys could do this as well. But for now, I think this formula is already a pretty good thing for us.

    Regards,
    Mario

  2. #2

    Default Re: Tax income as a function of population and tax rate

    So maybe I should elaborate a bit on what this formula actually tells us.

    The first thing to note is, this is a heavy money-from-population-growth nerf, as the logarithmic scaling compared to a linear scaling severely dampens the effect of high population growth rates on tax income. This means, higher tax rates are more attractive compared to lower tax rates than they would be if the scaling was linear.

    It also favors aggressive, expansive strategies over defensive turtling, growth focused strategies, because having the same amount of population distributed over a larger number of settlements gives you a lot more taxes.

    It also compensates the influence of the exponential population growth on the tax income growth. As I said I have no mathematical model on this yet, but I expect the tax income growth to be overall slightly logarithmical. Taking into account that you aquire new settlements through expansion which contribute to your tax income rate as well, this should become slightly exponential.

    Basically this suggests that the developers of this system tried to smooth out snowballing effects a bit, since they would otherwise be way too decisive in such a deterministic, large-scale strategy game, and first of all to reward pro-active, risky strategies, strategies that rely on players interacting with their opponents, rather than each playing passively on their own.

    They probably did this because they considered the game to be more fun this way, with which I firmly agree.

    Fun trivia: the formula also tells us that with a population lower than 82, the tax income would become negative! But as we all know, it's impossible to get it so far down, so who cares. ^^

  3. #3
    Mank's Avatar Dormouse of Hader
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    Default Re: Tax income as a function of population and tax rate

    Oh wow this is really cool! Great work on the formula, and can't wait to see what you come up with for the long-term cumulative tax data. I think this also does a great job of demonstrating through numbers why blitzing is one of the most popular strategies.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Tax income as a function of population and tax rate

    A short explanation of the divisor R in the formula that represents the influence of the tax rate: Don't confuse this, the lower values for R correspond to the higher tax rates, and the higher values for R correspond to the lower tax rate, because they're inversely proportional to the income (for equal population). This means, when you compare them to, you have to compare the inverse values: 0,5 ; 0,4 ; 0,333... ; 0,2666... . With those, you get the following rates:

    Low tax rate is -20% of normal tax rate.
    High tax rate is +20% of normal tax rate.
    Very high tax rate is +50% of normal tax rate.

    So very high tax rate gives you two and a half times the money bonus of high tax rate compared to normal, at only twice the population growth malus. Thus, it's actually more profitable than high tax rate, even with the malus taken into account.
    It is counter-balanced through it's over-proportionally high penalty on public order instead. So all in all, if you want to raise more money, sacrificing growth rate, anyways, you should go for very high tax rate over high tax rate whenever you can keep the settlement under control, using the money for expansion, gaining more settlements so you can use this logarithmic tax system to your advantage.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Tax income as a function of population and tax rate

    @Mank: Sorry, you posted while I was typing my last post, so I couldn't see it when posting! ^^ Thanks mate, glad you enjoy it! Yeah I'm quite motivated to dig into this stuff even further and will post it wenn I got new results to share!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Tax income as a function of population and tax rate

    Here's a chart of Mario's equation, for anyone who likes to see the math done out.

    This is only the equation for base tax income vs population, no other modifiers.

    EDIT: my tables aren't showing, here is the plaintext version...

    Pop____Low Med High Vhigh
    500____194 242 290 363
    1000___267 334 401 502
    5000___439 549 659 823
    10000__513 641 770 962
    15000__556 695 835 1043
    20000__587 734 881 1101
    25000__611 764 916 1145

    As you can see, 5000 pop on Med Taxes is nearly equal to 15000 pop on Low Taxes...

    The main purpose of upgrading settlements is to build high level structures, not gain tax income.
    Last edited by DrDragun; August 07, 2013 at 10:27 AM.

  7. #7
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Tax income as a function of population and tax rate

    Absolutely correct. I think we should take into account also that taxation is not the only source of income and in many places not the main one.

    To be clearer:

    - trade / port / warehouse / mines upgrades promplty bring up new fresh income, while taxe need time to increase the revenue due to slow pop growth
    - clearly you can't upgrade trade, port etc if you can't upgrade the city itself

    so basically, even if it is clear that even normal taxation brings much more than low, I remain that having low tax rate is the best way to faster develop the income of the city.

    what puzzels me, anyway: how can it be that between 5000 and 15000 (3 times more!!) there is only an increase of (averagely) 150 gp?? truly if not for the purpose of upgrading city making the population to grow is really quite pointless.
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  8. #8

    Default Re: Tax income as a function of population and tax rate

    Definitely. I guess one obvious thing to consider is settlements that start the game with Huge City status (Minas Tirith, etc) where you can build anything you want regardless of pop. In these settlements, you really gotta consider whether it's worthwhile to set taxes to low just to get +150 tax income 80 turns later and a chance at a couple of eventual good traits on Denethor, or whether it's better to set to Med-High and be able to upkeep a couple more militia units in the early game. If those early militia let you seize another 1-2 settlements and start controlling the map (and taking income from those settlements and denying them to your enemy), it is much more worthwhile to run higher taxes in the early game.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Tax income as a function of population and tax rate

    It's all hardcoded or can we mess around with the formulas?

    I mean, would make more sense if when you lower taxes trading get a boost. If there is a multiplier yet, would be even better, like port cities suffering/benefiting more from taxes raising/lowering, respectively.

    If 'tis possible, then we could work on a whole new strategy system for economics, and give gameplay more depth.

  10. #10
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Tax income as a function of population and tax rate

    Quote Originally Posted by Excellion View Post
    It's all hardcoded or can we mess around with the formulas?

    I mean, would make more sense if when you lower taxes trading get a boost. If there is a multiplier yet, would be even better, like port cities suffering/benefiting more from taxes raising/lowering, respectively.

    If 'tis possible, then we could work on a whole new strategy system for economics, and give gameplay more depth.
    try to ask here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...nd-Help-Thread, this post is dedicated to such matters.

    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Tax income as a function of population and tax rate

    To be fair, taxes are one of your more stable resources, apart from farming, as trade, especially as Gondor, can be disrupted.

    Though I do prefer setting taxes to whatever level hits my benchmark pop growth, usually one percent for anything above village.

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