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Thread: So What Is a Christian anyway?

  1. #281
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    So, two people claim to be Christian, both say the other is not a Christian, there is not a set of objective criteria to discern which is a Christian and which is not: conclusion, they're both Christians by virtue of the only known objective criteria that can make a Christian a Christian: the claim that they're Christian.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  2. #282
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    So, two people claim to be Christian, both say the other is not a Christian, there is not a set of objective criteria to discern which is a Christian and which is not: conclusion, they're both Christians by virtue of the only known objective criteria that can make a Christian a Christian: the claim that they're Christian.
    Himster,

    Unfortunately that's the kind of answer one would expect from a non-Christian. If we look at what the criterion is then we can begin to see what is Christian and what is not. So, what is that criterion? It is as is written, does Jesus know the claimant and does the claimant know Jesus? Accordingly it is apparent that there are some who think they do yet don't in Jesus' own words. So, what's missing? What's missing is the surety that defines the one from the other, Him being the very Spirit of God who is given at the point of rebirth.

    As you know or should know this world has a huge so-called Christian population, the largest portion of the total population, yet something is quite wrong with these figures, why? The figures cannot be right because the church was never meant to be huge ever. Oh, taking in all time of course its number cannot be counted but in each generation few if any get in. These are Jesus' words not mine so from them we can see that there are a heck of a lot of imposters posing as Christians.

    Therefore one has to ask why things have got this way and perhaps Paul's letter to the Galatian church explains much in that direction. In short it is teaching where the fault lies, teaching that is not as Paul laid down, him given it by the Lord Himself. And the centre point of that teaching is the cross that is missing from most of the people who profess being Christian. In other words, the union between a believer and Christ at the cross has become the missing element so crucial to the rebirth that separates believer from false believers.

    In rebirth there must be a change of nature so where is that in modern so-called Christian religiosity? Call a baptised child a Christian or just ask Jesus into one's life and the deal is done and dusted so they think. There is no change of life outside of the asker being told all that he or she must give up if only to prove that change has taken place when in reality nothing has changed, certainly not within that person's nature. In effect both have taken salvation out of God's hands and placed it into the hand of man. The Bible plainly speaks of salvation being of God and no-one else.

    Therefore what we have and what Paul and the others warned of and what Jesus told of is a penn, filled with both sheep and goats, the sheep having shared the crucifixion with Him and the others not. The former know His voice as He knows them, but not so the latter, the goats. The latter have their idols, their relics, their statues, Mary and beads but the former have the Spirit of God as testimony to the fact that they were indeed there when they crucified our Lord. That my friends is the teaching of the cross and that which is much maligned in these modern times.

  3. #283
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    That's your personal definition. That's your interpretation based on your subjective experiences, without evidence it's just your opinion. There are 2.1 billion Christians currently in this world, very few agree with you. Billions of Christians, billions (or at least millions) of interpretations, many are mutually exclusive and none offer any objective evidence, they're just far-fetched claims, just words, indistinguishable from each other.

    You say Catholics aren't Christians and Catholics say you aren't a Christian. Neither have objective evidence for this claim, just differing opinions. What do opinions matter? Truth may be found in an opinion, but having an opinion doesn't automatically make you right.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  4. #284

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
    So if someone says they are a true Christian, it is true - at least to them, regardless of how they behave because they as an individual discern it to be true? You go on to say elsewhere that you do not need to determine who is a true Christian - and yet you so readily say that people who don't behave a certain way aren't true Christians. If you're going to make that statement, you need to be able to determine who is and isn't a Christian. So, either everyone who self identifies as a Christian is a Christian - because it's not your place to determine that, and it is true to the individual discerning it OR only people who behave a certain way are true Christians, in which case you have to tell me why your way of altruism and peace is more correct than the way of bigotry and violence, keeping in mind that these are both within the bible.
    NO! Sorry to be vehement. I'm saying I cannot determine if one person has an authentic relationship with YHWH. That's the limit of my discernment. I may note that certain people do not seem to be Christians because of those primary things i.e.:
    1) Deciding that they are sinful, admitting their sin to YHWH, and then
    2) Deciding to be born-again, and thus a new creation, and so becoming a servant in humility to YHWH
    3) Which is solely an emotional bond, a relationship, not intellectual assent of any ideas. No different than a husband to a wife, or a father to a child.
    4) All things said by Jesus, and then He goes further that if you love Him, you'll be altruistic to help the suffering too.

    We cannot determine the authenticity of a relationship, not really. One can see problems, but generally speaking only when one observes both parties. We only see the believer and not YHWH.

    Also, it's not my job to evangelize here for that is not the topic. The topic is on "So what is a Christian anyway?" That's the definition, not spewing theology. I cannot inculcate Truth in you. In person, I might share the Gospel and answer your question, but to do so on the Internet is problematic. The only way I would answer that question would be if someone specifically created a topic to address that question. Even then, it would become a matter of Defending the Faith and trampling that which was Holy.

    Why? Because witnessing is personal, caring, tender, and not giving people answers but engaging in a conversation, based upon the feelings and thoughts of the nonbeliever (in a completely respectful way) and then sharing the same from the believer through their experiences on that journey. Then the nonbeliever either has a seed planted and they continue to look for Veritas, or not, or finds Veritas in something else like philosophy instead of spirituality. Or they are self-actualized and they meld Veritas from philosophy and spirituality. No one knows the Truth for another.
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    So, two people claim to be Christian, both say the other is not a Christian, there is not a set of objective criteria to discern which is a Christian and which is not: conclusion, they're both Christians by virtue of the only known objective criteria that can make a Christian a Christian: the claim that they're Christian.
    No, but for a simple reason. Would you say that Dr. Tyson is an atheist or an agnostic? We each make value judgements as to the authenticity of a path, but we cannot ever know. Only Dr. Tyson knows. Likewise, I cannot determine whether one is a Christian or not, but that DOESN"T suppose that both are? Both may not be Christians, just as both may not be atheists or agnostics.

    For definitions, then one would logically conclude that those who do the Biblical things mentioned above are the very core of what defines a Christian. It's the most basic theology there is. There are no extraneous things in that list. Any removed would result in a very problematic definition of a Christian. Definitions cannot be nebulous, for then you have a chair being a table instead by labeling a table a chair. But one must trust the individual to make the discovery and work towards accomplishing those things in the list. Both may be Christians, one might not be a Christian, and both might not be a Christian too. Who is to say? We cannot automatically assume that a claim means it's valid. I may claim to be an alien, but my claim is not true.

    For a Christian, to make a value judgement as to the authenticity of the relationship between a believer and YHWH is judgement. We cannot do that, and we are on shaky theological group every time we do it. It's prideful and causes us to sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    That's your personal definition. That's your interpretation based on your subjective experiences, without evidence it's just your opinion. There are 2.1 billion Christians currently in this world, very few agree with you. Billions of Christians, billions (or at least millions) of interpretations, many are mutually exclusive and none offer any objective evidence, they're just far-fetched claims, just words, indistinguishable from each other.

    You say Catholics aren't Christians and Catholics say you aren't a Christian. Neither have objective evidence for this claim, just differing opinions. What do opinions matter? Truth may be found in an opinion, but having an opinion doesn't automatically make you right.
    And this is not any different than an atheist claiming another atheist is not one. I don't see your point. At least agnostics claim quite rightly that since they are not omniscient, they cannot ever have all of the evidence, and they cannot know lots of things perfectly. They can make guesses, but upon logic, reason, but to be honest based upon feelings just as much as an atheist or a Christian.

    I don't want to make this an atheist versus Christian debate, but honestly one could make claims that atheists do not have common beliefs either, particularly when they only make claims about nonbelief in god or gods. That statement means nothing literally, and thus that information makes every single atheist interpreting life randomly.

    For a Christian there are governing Biblical principles, plus lots of theology, plus lots of history, and the vast majority of those ideas and books there is agreement. One cannot agree on a disbelief of literary figures who are not real (which is atheism). It's absurdity. Only the disbelief in God can have a tiny bit of discussion as it's marginally better.
    ...

    The central problem in defining a "Christian" is sin and pride. We can't even begin to discuss that to get to a commentary on Romans 3 in order to discuss the role of the Atonement unless you we get past basic incorrect ideas on intellectual assent, Christians as theists, what a Christian is defined as, etc, "23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Romans 3:23

    A lot of people, both believers in Christianity and atheists, do not understand very very basic theology, and thus these kinds of discussions are dubious when discussing them on the Internet.

    I'd say that one definition of a Christian is someone very humble, who sees all their sin, but doesn't feel condemned by it. We know we make continual mistakes, admit our sins to YHWH, and ask for forgiveness. That because the love is constant from YHWH, we are inspired and feel secure in our faith, and so to demonstrate it means altruism for the suffering. It's not about who is right or wrong, or who is in or out, it's about a realization that we were rebels and continue to rebel, and trying to repair a relationship with YHWH who loves us completely in spite of that. YHWH is willing to give us grace even though we could never earn it, but because of our sin resulted in the suffering of Christ on the cross, and that Christ suffers because we fail to be altruistic.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; April 10, 2014 at 08:54 PM.

  5. #285

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    I'm saying I cannot determine if one person has an authentic relationship with YHWH.
    Very well. So then it naturally follows that if someone says that they're a Christian, they're a Christian seeings as nobody can confirm their relationship with Jesus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert View Post
    the Church has only improved mankind in history

    For this there are words, but none that abide by the ToS.

  6. #286

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
    Very well. So then it naturally follows that if someone says that they're a Christian, they're a Christian seeings as nobody can confirm their relationship with Jesus.
    No, but you're closer. If I cannot verify that someone is X, I cannot assume that a claim means they are X. In Christianity, the issue is focusing on the wrong relationship. I'm working out my salvation through my relationship with YHWH, and NOT worrying about what some other believer is doing. Their experience may be just as real; their journey an honorable one; they may be coming closer to the mark, but then might be failing in other respects. It's not for me to say. [Hold that thought, for there is a checks and balances system in Christianity.]

    Being a Christian is not a goal that is reached, it's a dynamic process. On such and such a day I didn't achieve accomplishing some theological goals. I entered into a lifelong relationship with YHWH, both my mortal life and an eternal life.

    No one can ever be "good" this is why Jesus says,
    "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone." Luke 18:19

    Jesus (Yeshua) is both God and Man at this point. He came down to be incarnated as a human but with attributes of YHWH. He cannot be good. Only Supreme Reality can be defined in that way. When He returned back to Heaven as an aspect of YHWH, then He is good.

    We sure are not good. We fall short every day. Some of us dangerously so.

    Likewise in Romans 3

    No One Is Righteous

    9What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10As it is written:

    “There is no one righteous, not even one;

    11there is no one who understands;

    there is no one who seeks God.

    12All have turned away,

    they have together become worthless;

    there is no one who does good,

    not even one.”b
    13“Their throats are open graves;
    their tongues practice deceit.”c
    “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”d
    14“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”e

    15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;

    16ruin and misery mark their ways,

    17and the way of peace they do not know.”f

    18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”g


    19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. Romans 3:9-20.

    The focusing on the sin of others = noticing how people fell short of the goal. Sin itself isn't necessarily evil. Evil is the absence of good. It's a negative, but in this case sin is not doing as we ought. Since all Christians fail for they sin even in spite of their desire to live sinlessly, then judging others for doing precisely the same thing, and then squinting at gnats of difference between their shortfall, and not paying attention to their own, results in Pride.

    Pride assumes that in some way we are better than another. Or that we do not need YHWH, when we are utterly dependent upon YHWH. If there was no YHWH, the Universe would cease to exist, for YHWH is Supreme Reality.

    A claim is not enough, and confirmation is not what is needed. What's needed is to live ourselves as devoted to YHWH as possible and letting YHWH help us to not sin. YHWH guids out hands on that bowstring that is difficult and tense (our actions) and YHWH reveals and helps us discern with our eyes so we see how we erred.

    None of that means a claim of being a Christian means that another is one. If definitions are meaningless, and there is no protocol to being defined in some manner, than I could make any claim, not be subject to Biblical evidence, and that is heresy.

    When believers make up definitions to be what they want them to be, rather than yielding to YHWH, and not discerning Truth from the Bible, then that is a prideful process that results in sin and creates heretical doctrines. As servants to YHWH, we have no authority to do any such thing. Or else I could say a Christian is one who murders atheists. I cannot just make crap up at random, but discern what is in Holy Scripture and fix myself, not edit the Bible or theology.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; April 10, 2014 at 09:58 PM.

  7. #287

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    No, but you're closer. If I cannot verify that someone is X, I cannot assume that a claim means they are X. In Christianity, the issue is focusing on the wrong relationship. I'm working out my salvation through my relationship with YHWH, and NOT worrying about what some other believer is doing. Their experience may be just as real; their journey an honorable one; they may be coming closer to the mark, but then might be failing in other respects. It's not for me to say. [Hold that thought, for there is a checks and balances system in Christianity.]
    Keeping this in mind with
    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    The definition of Truth is arrived at by the individual discerning it.
    this

    If I am a a doctor killing, clinic burning bigot - as long as I think that's what Jesus (a Jesus who is not God, but one of Gods messengers) wants me to do, and I believe it to be true, I am a Christian. If you're going to contend that point you need to come up with some reason as to why your definition is more valid than another.
    Last edited by Lazarus; April 11, 2014 at 12:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert View Post
    the Church has only improved mankind in history

    For this there are words, but none that abide by the ToS.

  8. #288

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Many people make claims about their self-identity, but when their disclosure is at odds with basic Biblical principles, plus their actions don't demonstrate altrusim but hate and violence, then there it's rather obvious that whatever they are, it's probably not Christianity.

    And if we get into the sheer amount of violence perpetrated by one group against another, it's no comparison between the Communists who were atheist by definition who killed millions versus Christianity.

    Anyone can hate and disguise that hate by shrouding their identity with a belief system.

    If an atheist is a serial killer, are all atheists responsible for that one's action? If a Christian, then does that mean that Christianity is tainted?

    Both atheists and Christians perpetrate abortion. We've always had it. It was commonly done with herbs. Physicians have always had a personal moral quandry as to who is the patient. It's responsible for millions of deaths (40 million per year world-wide), litterally genocide. Is it the fault of Christianity either for not allowing it to be easier, or because we don't oppose it more, or should Christians stay out of it even though it's at odds with the Bible? I don't know. I can only do what my conscience says from reading of the Bible. It's not an essential aspect of those lines I listed above to be a Christian.

    The only time we can cause the death of another is War. Otherwise we're culpable. Even then, one could live a very noble but perhaps misguided path like the Amish and Mennonites. For they won't protect themselves from violence at all (in general).
    "Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely--be content with your pay." Luke 3:14.

    Note that Jesus doesn't tell soldiers to lay down their arms, stop being a soldier, to be a Christian. Nope. Don't extort money or bear false witness, and be content with your wages. Don't abuse your power.

    Christianity is the relationship, but there are responsibilities to be a Christian. It is not intellectual assent. Thus saying it internally, or vocally, is not what makes one person a Christian. Only YHWH knows the authenticy of the action. We can judge, that someone was or wasn't a Christian, but it's a sin. I don't know, but I think the kind of person who bombs clinics is insane first, but might ascribe belief intellectually to all kinds of things.

    Do we execute the person who murders another? Is that justice? Is that what Jesus would do based upon Biblical example? That's tricky. We have limited examples. Did Jesus condemn folks like Barabbus or those who perpetrated violence? In a way, when they came for him, he told his disciples to put down the sword rather than protect him:
    "50Jesus replied, “Do what you came for, friend.”d

    Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.
    51With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
    52“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?” Matthew 26: 50-54

    But he also tells the disciples to have a sword as well.
    "He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one." Luke 22:36
    We're allowed to protect ourselves, but not to incite violence, especially when it's YHWH's plan for Jesus to be taken so that He can be the sacrifice for the whole world throughout time, that we should have grace.

    Mainstream Christians have instead offered to provide financial assistance, babysit infants, provided clothing and food and supplies, even educate the young mothers, in order to protect BOTH the mother and child. That's altruism to help a frightened young person who often has deep financial need, and cannot make it on her own, much less feed one more mouth.

    Which would Jesus have us do?

    Does anyone want one more abortion? Or do they want to help young people protect their health, educate about contraception, healthcare access, help with finances and better job security, provide struggling people with food, vitamins, supplies, etc? Could atheists and Christians work together and help them or spend time fighting some aspect of abortion? What would be better?

    If we are defined as Christians as servants to YHWH, then could any Christian ever work in an abortion clinic? If only YHWH has the power of life and death, if we are created by YHWH, then I think that intentionally harming a life, cutting it short in that manner, performing that process in the gruesome way we disregard the fetus as a human being, then could that ever be condoned by YHWH?

    No cheap answers, a struggle as we contend with Scripture, like Jacob wrestling with the Angel. Some even feel that Angel was Jesus. We struggle to discern and pray not to sin. I cannot see how any Christian could be a part of abortion, but we could help people altruistically who are struggling with it. We could be compassionate, not inflict guilt and condemnation. We could be supportive in myriad ways. None of that is violent, and all of that latter part is Biblical.
    http://www.preceptaustin.org/angel_of_the_lord.htm
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; April 11, 2014 at 01:31 AM.

  9. #289
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Look guys,

    Jesus Christ either finished what He set out to do on the cross or He didn't. That is the first point and without doubt the most important one. I believe that He did indeed finish the work ordained for Him to do meaning therefore in God's time each person for whom He died, for whose sins He washed away, they would be brought to the realisation in rebirth that they are now sin free, especially in the eyes of the One who declared them to be sinners in the first place.

    Secondly, it is rebirth, the passing from belonging to Satan to belonging to Christ that is the surety of the new life in Christ. Therefore rebirth is the unlocking of heaven's door to a people once sinners yet not anymore. If God can say that He never knew them as having been sinners what right has any man reborn got in saying they are still sinners? Titus takes great pains to explain this in his book to the Hebrews. The problem with man even in a saved state is in him trying to rationalise this truth with the world he still has to live in. But in doing so, he mistrusts the word of God and what Jesus actually accomplished on the cross.

    Therefore when people supposedly saved still maintain that they are sinners they deny the power of the blood. In effect they are still in doubt as to their salvation assuming that works in the good sense is going to get them off the hook when judgement comes. It doesn't matter how many times, how often, a man or woman saved falls down in the course of their new life in Christ because He paid for every iota of sin in them on that wonderful day. And, if and when they do fall or stumble, is it possible that the Holy Spirit in them could possibly let them be taken over once more by the curse? Not according to Paul.

    So, are we to be guided, influenced, by the confusion of men and women or are we to believe God? Was our conversion experience but a whiff of the imagination or was it real? Did the blood actually cleanse every bit of sin away from them He died for or was His death and resurrection not as thorough as we are taught to believe? If it is the latter then not one of us ever born can say without doubt entry to heaven is assured. I personally do not believe that, not just from my own experience but from all that is written in Scripture as being the breathed word of God which corroborates my experience.

  10. #290

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Look guys,

    Jesus Christ either finished what He set out to do on the cross or He didn't. That is the first point and without doubt the most important one. I believe that He did indeed finish the work ordained for Him to do meaning therefore in God's time each person for whom He died, for whose sins He washed away, they would be brought to the realisation in rebirth that they are now sin free, especially in the eyes of the One who declared them to be sinners in the first place.

    Secondly, it is rebirth, the passing from belonging to Satan to belonging to Christ that is the surety of the new life in Christ. Therefore rebirth is the unlocking of heaven's door to a people once sinners yet not anymore. If God can say that He never knew them as having been sinners what right has any man reborn got in saying they are still sinners? Titus takes great pains to explain this in his book to the Hebrews. The problem with man even in a saved state is in him trying to rationalise this truth with the world he still has to live in. But in doing so, he mistrusts the word of God and what Jesus actually accomplished on the cross.

    Therefore when people supposedly saved still maintain that they are sinners they deny the power of the blood. In effect they are still in doubt as to their salvation assuming that works in the good sense is going to get them off the hook when judgement comes. It doesn't matter how many times, how often, a man or woman saved falls down in the course of their new life in Christ because He paid for every iota of sin in them on that wonderful day. And, if and when they do fall or stumble, is it possible that the Holy Spirit in them could possibly let them be taken over once more by the curse? Not according to Paul.

    So, are we to be guided, influenced, by the confusion of men and women or are we to believe God? Was our conversion experience but a whiff of the imagination or was it real? Did the blood actually cleanse every bit of sin away from them He died for or was His death and resurrection not as thorough as we are taught to believe? If it is the latter then not one of us ever born can say without doubt entry to heaven is assured. I personally do not believe that, not just from my own experience but from all that is written in Scripture as being the breathed word of God which corroborates my experience.
    I could agree with 99% of that save that statement I bolded. Are you saying that Christians do not sin, once saved, in a state of perpetual state of being sinless? If so, then I would have to disagree as that's not theologically defensible.

    "14 Our Lord poured out more and more of his grace on me. Along with it came faith and love from Christ Jesus.
    15 Here is a saying that you can trust. It should be accepted completely. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.

    And I am the worst sinner of all. 16 But for that very reason, God showed me mercy. And I am the worst of sinners. He showed me mercy so that Christ Jesus could show that he is very patient. I was an example for those who would come to believe in him. Then they would receive eternal life. I Timothy 1:14-16


    That's present tense. He's not saying, "I am the worst to ever have lived". He's saying he's done terrible sins because of persecuting Christians, thus personally making Jesus suffer. But also that despite knowing what is right, he continues to sin. We are not absolved from sin because we were saved... forever. Asking for forgiveness means for our previous sins, or asking for YHWH to forgive us since we are fallible and know that we will continue to sin.

    If I am saved, and then I encourage my wife to get an abortion because I can see no way out otherwise, then I am sinning and encouraging her to sin. If I murder someone after being saved, I committed a mortal sin.

    21So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful natured a slave to the law of sin. Romans 7: 21-25

    If Paul was freed from all of his sins forever, he would not go on about it. He knows that he is human and fails despite loving YHWH with all his heart, and so must keep at it, since he will "miss the mark" (sin) by failing to do as he ought, or worse do something that is evil and way miss the mark.

    If we could be saved, and then never sin again from that moment, then there would never be a need to ask for forgiveness. Then sin would be forgiven even if we didn't ask for it. Christians could carte blanche do anything and get off scott free. Nope.
    "14For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matthew 6:14
    We continue to sin after being saved. We must continually ask forgiveness for our faults, failings, shortcomings, and the evil that we do. We're not made perfect by salvation, but perfectly forgiven by the grace of Jesus Christ. Not only this, but the definition of a Christian is to forgive others so that they petioning may be forgiven their sins. The bomber of a clinic, who hates his brother or sister commits sin when they do the violent action, but also merely thinking about it, being harsh to another and unforgiving who is an unbeliever.
    ...

    The definition of a Christian is a person who realizes their rebellion to YHWH, admits their sins, askes to be forgiven and a new creation, but then must perpetually enter into a conversation with YHWH as a love relationship, dutifully look to the Bible for guidance such that YHWH can communicate with them. Then do altruistic acts, not since it results in forgiveness, but are acts of love to reduce the suffering of Jesus.
    "14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James 2:14-16

    A Christian who only gives intellectual assent, but not his heart and his soul to YHWH, then likely fails to also do works to demonstrate that love. He is dead. And Jesus says that person who claimed to be a Christian, was really not a servant (a sheep) but a goat who did what he wanted to do, and not what Jesus and James and others said to do in the Bible. He is dead and worse wasted his relationship with Jesus, and Jesus will not help him at the end of time. Christians are defined as people who will be judged even harsher than the unbeliever.

    A Christian is defined, not as a sinless person, not as a perfect adherent who always does what is correct, not a enlightened person who on their own merit and reading of Scripture knows what to do or how to act. A Christian knows that they are wretched creatures who cannot do what they need to do, and that in that humility are loved anyway, even by the death of a facet of YHWH who came incarnated as Jesus the Christ. And so, we continue to sin, ask forgiveness of YHWH, because every sin resulted in the suffering of Jesus on the Cross. Every single one. No wonder that Jesus felt momentarily abandoned when it was so much sin all at once, beyond the horror of the crucifixion, that it is believed that YHWH could not bear to look upon Jesus' visage.
    http://carm.org/questions/about-jesu...ou-forsaken-me

    "About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?")." Matthew 27:46


    For the sake of the whole world, throughout time, Jesus saves all of humanity, if we will but ask for it in all sincerity, admit our sin and rebellion, and if called by YHWH. Then we are new creations, not perfect, but stumbling servants to the Most High.

    Thus we should not judge anyone. How could we as servants so culpable for the suffering of Christ? Thus we are not hypocrites, but recognizing that we are human and fail. Not ever saying we are better than sinners, but sinners unworthy of Love, but joyously loved by YHWH.

    "mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa — "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault"
    Roman Catholic Latin Mass
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; April 11, 2014 at 06:53 PM.

  11. #291

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Well anyone can say they're Christian but true Christians have what would be called a "relationship" with Jesus. That being said those people would probably think twice before intentionally sinning. That's how it is basically in my opinion and my opinion is probably a fact.

  12. #292

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    I agree. Any Christian who knowingly sins, then is like this from Scripture:

    "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” 2 Peter 2: 20-22

    For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-27


    Instead of being servants, when we continue to sin, we lie to ourselves that we love Jesus and YHWH and the Holy Spirit, and truly are adversaries of all of the aspects of God. We fool ourselves.

    22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does. 26 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
    James 1: 22-27
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; April 11, 2014 at 07:13 PM.

  13. #293

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quintus Dias View Post
    That's how it is basically in my opinion and my opinion is probably a fact.
    I believe being humble is also one of those Christian virtues. Your post seems less than Christian.

  14. #294

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciabhán View Post
    I believe being humble is also one of those Christian virtues. Your post seems less than Christian.
    Perhaps.

    I would say, that when good people do things like donating meat from hunting a feral hog, or donating a car to help the poor, have done precisely the kinds of things that Jesus asked us to do, and that when we do those things, that's when we are most aware of Jesus. That I am more aware of Jesus when I hear another has done those things. They are honorable good actions.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; April 11, 2014 at 07:25 PM.

  15. #295

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciabhán View Post
    I believe being humble is also one of those Christian virtues. Your post seems less than Christian.
    Me stating the fact that serious Christians who truly believe in Jesus have a relationship with Jesus is apparently anti Christian? Well sure what I said might offend a person who claims they're Christian but don't actually do anything about it. Real Christians who I was talking about are those that read the bible and who are in a relationship with whom they believe is their god and savior. Sigh since when is going to Church and living a completely different lifestyle "okay".

    btw having said that there's no catholic or protestant a true believe is part of jesus's family
    But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! 50“For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”
    Matthew 12:48 - 50

    also not trying to sound arrogant I'm saying the difference between lukewarm and those who are in a relationship with who they believe is their savior also sorry I meant serious instead of real. Like you make the decision to believe and live by the bible is what i meant by real and or serious
    Last edited by Quintus Dias; April 11, 2014 at 07:44 PM.

  16. #296

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    Many people make claims about their self-identity, but when their disclosure is at odds with basic Biblical principles, plus their actions don't demonstrate altrusim but hate and violence, then there it's rather obvious that whatever they are, it's probably not Christianity.
    But why is altruism so big in the Bible? There's just as much about how you're supposed to kill people and when you're allowed to kill them. Why is it that just because your view is altruistic, it's the correct interpretation of the Bible? The answer of course is you think your interpretation is correct because it's your interpretation - and all you have to back that up is opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert View Post
    the Church has only improved mankind in history

    For this there are words, but none that abide by the ToS.

  17. #297

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
    But why is altruism so big in the Bible? There's just as much about how you're supposed to kill people and when you're allowed to kill them. Why is it that just because your view is altruistic, it's the correct interpretation of the Bible? The answer of course is you think your interpretation is correct because it's your interpretation - and all you have to back that up is opinion.
    I think it is one of the real stumbling blocks for an intellectual who is an atheist and who believes in moral relativism. For anyone who doesn't know what moral relativism is:
    "Moral relativism may be any of several philosophical positions concerned with the differences in moral judgments across different people and cultures. Descriptive moral relativism holds only that some people do in fact disagree about what is moral; meta-ethical moral relativism holds that in such disagreements, nobody is objectively right or wrong; and normative moral relativism holds that because nobody is right or wrong, we ought to tolerate the behavior of others even when we disagree about the morality of it."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

    or better:
    "Moral relativism has the unusual distinction—both within philosophy and outside it—of being attributed to others, almost always as a criticism, far more often than it is explicitly professed by anyone. Nonetheless, moral relativism is a standard topic in metaethics, and there are contemporary philosophers who defend forms of it: The most prominent are Gilbert Harman and David B. Wong. The term ‘moral relativism’ is understood in a variety of ways. Most often it is associated with an empirical thesis that there are deep and widespread moral disagreements and a metaethical thesis that the truth or justification of moral judgments is not absolute, but relative to some group of persons. Sometimes ‘moral relativism’ is connected with a normative position about how we ought to think about or act towards those with whom we morally disagree, most commonly that we should tolerate them."
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-relativism/

    So there is no right or wrong, only opinions about it, but that we should be tolerant of everyone because there can't be an agreement as to what is moral or not.

    If one can do whatever one wants, for there are no morals, then while tolerating others, then is there any impetus to aid the suffering? Some atheists claim no, like the Objectivists (From Rand) who claim:
    "A corollary to Rand's endorsement of self-interest is her rejection of the ethical doctrine of altruism—which she defined in the sense of Auguste Comte's altruism (he coined the term), as a moral obligation to live for the sake of others."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_%28Ayn_Rand%29

    Thus altruism has no meaning, for they are called exclusive to do what is in THEIR self-interest. Why not just have the strong kill the weak and the rest be slaves if we can do whatever we want because there is no morality. That's despotism. There wouldn't be any philosophy anymore. While one could think whatever, most would be enslaved. Philosophy would be superfluous. Worse, they could be dead.

    This is the very opposite of Christianity. While one can believe in Jesus, Jesus states it is the very basis of belief to be altruistic for God is Love. We cannot be Christians without it, merely deceiving ourselves.
    "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says" James 1:22

    It's not my interpretation. If you can find an interpretation of the passages I have quoted in which it says something different than what I am saying...have at it. It's pretty cut and dried. Most of the Bible is pretty cut and dried. Other verses are very obscure or complex and so difficult to discern the meaning. The rest are crystal clear.

    Have you read it yourself? It's not all about killing people. There are some verses about the early Jews seizing the land of others who lived in the region or fighting them. Do you think that those other people were just peaceful happy carefree folks or fighting to annihilate the Jews too?

    Even so, Jesus is overwhelmingly discussing alturism, being caring and considerate, being an iconclast to teach women, breaking laws when it was practical and helping people see that the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around. He tried to remove heavy burdens that the religious rigid fundamentalists had heaped upon other Jews.

    Nope, it's not my opinion. It's the scholarly study of millenia from diverse people mostly coming to the same conclusion about essential tenets of belief. A criticism often cast upon Christianity is, "Well, BS. That's your interpretation." OK, find lots of diverse interpretation about essential tenets and we can discuss it, but only within the context of the definition of Christianity. All else would be off-topic.

    What I think you'll find is that some person will come up with an idea about a specific verse, and then a whole sect will get focused about it, and then there are interpretations about it. But not about the essential. Say this verse,
    "The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead--whom you killed by hanging him on a cross." Acts 5:30.
    Versus

    The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree." Acts 5:30

    Some people get hung up on that and think that the Romans instead of doing what they normally did with crucifixion, hung Jesus on a tree. Is that likely or a metaphor?

    But are they arguing about what is the definition of a Christian? I think not.

    "God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
    Exodu 3: 14

    Or some interpret Say that I am who I am as (Yodh + He + Waw + He) and say Yahweh (there are no vowels) and some say Jehovah, but today most agree that in all likelihood Yahweh is closer. I prefer to say YHWH and not interpret what it sounds like. I don't know. What's more there is a very very long secret name for Ha Shem or the Adonai, called the SHEM HA MEFORASH that is probably the secret name of God, but does anyone know how to pronounce it as the Temple has long been destroyed and no one has performed the ritual for so long? Who knows? I believe that it's at least 72 letters long, was only said once, on the Day of Atonement, and only by a selected priest who was very devout. sumskilz would probably know.
    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar...em-ha-meforash

    EDIT1:
    Here is a less authoritative source of many references, but has more details. There was power in knowing the Name Above All Names, and yet it is a secret and seldom discussed and I'll bet you've not heard of it, even if a lifelong Christian as it comes from Judaism.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shemhamphorasch
    As you can see, while the Jews had a specific use for it in ritual (Yom Kippur I believe), it later was appropriated by diverse sources to invoke the supernatural, and even Satanists used it to profane the Holy. Those groups used their interpretations of the esoteric. None of which is essential Biblical teaching that is interpreted. Christians merely discuss YHWH only. Devout Jews won't even write the Name on a computer screen as there were questions about what if they make a mistake as they type it, as well as discussion about what if someone prints out the Name and then destroys it. So when the Name is discussed they say Ha Shem or Adonai (Lord).
    http://books.google.com/books?id=a2d...FORASH&f=false
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; April 11, 2014 at 09:59 PM. Reason: added more details about the Name of God

  18. #298

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
    Why is it that just because your view is altruistic, it's the correct interpretation of the Bible?
    ^ Give me a direct answer to this. Start your sentence with "my interpretation is correct because..." and then follow on from there.

    Again, Jesus did not abolish the old laws - said so himself. So all the death penalties from within the Bible are not automatically null and void just because we've got new management.
    Last edited by Lazarus; April 12, 2014 at 12:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert View Post
    the Church has only improved mankind in history

    For this there are words, but none that abide by the ToS.

  19. #299
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    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by RubiconDecision View Post
    *BLAH*
    Talk about Argumentum ad Nauseam...
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." - Nietzsche

  20. #300

    Default Re: So What Is a Christian anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
    ^ Give me a direct answer to this. Start your sentence with "my interpretation is correct because..." and then follow on from there.

    Again, Jesus did not abolish the old laws - said so himself. So all the death penalties from within the Bible are not automatically null and void just because we've got new management.
    You don't understand. You originally asked, "Why is it that just because your view is altruistic, it's the correct interpretation of the Bible?"
    You missed the point. It's not that my view is altruistic. No. It is what Jesus asked of us. It's what he demands of us in that passage about sheeps and goats as believing Christians. It's an essential tenet of being a Christian. It is not enough to acknowledge Jesus as Lord i.e. calling Jesus your Master will not save your soul. Faith alone will not do it, it is the beginning of the lifelong journey. It is why James says that Faith without works is dead. The heart of the Gospel that defines a Christian is found in those passages.

    Jesus tells us that the suffering is where we need to focus. When we do so, then we are helping him. That's our duty if we really are calling him Lord. It is crystal clear. There is no interpreting it any other way.

    There are only two types in that passage: sheeps and goats. Both call Jesus, "Lord". One group listened and did altruistic things. The other group did not.

    No one calls Jesus the Lord, much less Adonai, the Jewish term for YHWH, unless their belief is by faith. It's not a passage about believers and unbelievers. It's strictly about those who the world thinks are Christians by intellectual assent, but one group is sincere, and acts upon it. The other, knows Jesus is Lord, and yet doesn't act. Jesus tells the goats, he does not know them. They haven't served him. They claimed that they were believers, but didn't understand what they were supposed to do.

    If you get caught up thinking that there are lots of interpretations, then I have to ask if you've read it sincerely. There really isn't any other way to interpret it.

    I am telling you this, not to persuade you. I cannot persuade you. Only you can persuade yourself. I cannot say, "Do this. Believe this. And then you'll get it." No, you have to figure this out, admit your sins, ask for God to find you, and then accept Jesus by being born again as a new creature, a servant of God from then on.

    I cannot tell you my interpretation is correct. That won't do. You have to discern Truth on your own. It is deeply intimate and a relationship with YHWH. Looking for my answers and trying to agree or disagree (intellectual assent) will never help you. At best, you'll be a goat, and not a faithful sheep whose heart, mind, and soul was transformed by YHWH. Not transformed by RubiconDecision.

    Think of it this way. Can I make you fall in love with another? Not really. While I can praise someone, I cannot praise them so much that I can make another fall in love with them. My love for someone will not result in another loving the same person. If I love YHWH, no matter how much I say it, will it make you love YHWH? No. Only you can decide to love YHWH on your own.

    You're focusing on the wrong thing, paying attention to another believer, and not paying attention solely upon YHWH.
    Quote Originally Posted by Euphoric View Post
    Talk about Argumentum ad Nauseam...
    Well, one need not read each passage if you don't like it. If you think it's nauseating, then maybe you simply dislike it. You're free to reject the Gospel. That's what Free Will is.

    Criticism is offering an insight into another's words. What you said isn't insightful at all. Or answering the topic.
    ...
    You're right about death, Lazarus. Jesus didn't abolish death penalties. But what did Jesus do when a woman was accused of committing adultery?

    "8 1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
    But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
    9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
    11 “No one, sir,” she said.
    “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.” John 8: 1-11

    Did Jesus demand her death? No. Not only this, but he struck to the very heart of the Law. "Let any one of you who is without sin, be the first to throw a stone at her." No one is without sin. No one has the right to throw a stone.

    Jesus is merciful. YHWH could demand that we get our just punishment, for we are wretched creatures who sin all the time. And yet, we are forgiven when we ask for it. Will we get punished, probably so. Will we lose our eternal life? Probably not if a devout Christian who actually served Christ by altruism.


    The definition of a Christian is one who knows that they will fall short of the mark, cannot achieve a sinless life, and that even if they could, it wouldn't be enough to enter into Heaven. Only by the grace of God, by being born-again, by loving YHWH with our heart, mind, and soul, and acting as servants in altruism can we enter into Heaven.

    Valjean is treated with kindness by the Bishop. He's finally left prison after years serving his sentence. How does Valjean pay back the Bishop? By hitting him over the head, stealing the silver, even though the only person to offer him kindness is the Bishop.

    When captured, rather than allow Valjean to go back to prison, he lies and pretends that not only is the silver his, but offers him MORE. This is grace, altruism, love. That is the heart of being a Christian. We are both Valjean and undeserving of mercy, but knowing this, we do merciful things to help anyone, even those who despise us...for Jesus' sake.
    Last edited by RubiconDecision; April 12, 2014 at 04:25 AM.

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