Here we go again with trespassing armies (hope we learned from RTW and M2TW)

[Kinjo]

While watching the Gamespot E3 stage demo an important piece of information was revealed that you no longer need military access to enter the territory of another faction. While I think I might know why CA did this (so allies can reach locations of coordinated attacks easily) I really hope this feature is fleshed out. For anybody who played RTW and M2TW one really annoying problem that plagued the mid-late campaign was neutral Ai armies entering your land and just stand around causing devastation to your land. The annoying thing was you really didn't have a way to deal with them accept with military action which you were treated as the aggressor in diplomacy if you attacked them. For anybody who needs a refresher here are some threads from the past on the topic, you only really have to read the subject line to see how annoyed players were from this.


We NEED a 'Get the hell off my land!' Diplomacy Option!
Get off my land!!!
Get off my lands or else!

So this feature was a problem in the past for some players what has CA done to solve this? Will there finally be a diplomacy option to tell a trespassing Ai faction to get the hell off your land that so many people was begging for in RTW and M2TW?

Another thing I would like to see is that your army/navy can block the path of a neutral army or fleet from entering your land as if you were at war with them. So if you have a fleet in your naval region a neutral army can not land their force without military access or attacking and destroying the fleet. I want to be able to guard my borders and keep the intruders out, forts should act as blocking points too which can only be passed if you have military access or destroy them. I really don't mind the hard military access being removed, but please give us the tools we need as players to stop this either by physically blocking access with our own armies and fleets and the diplomacy option to tell a faction to get out of our territory.

E3 confirmation at about 4:10 in the vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...sDiqDeY#t=244s

[Marcus1]

I agree i am sick of thease sick foreignars devaste my land of my ancenstors, prepare to be killed romans!

[Armageddonn]

I agree, but this can have an easy fix for example: you/them can only stay in lands that are not yours and you don't have military access for 2-3 turns max, and if they don't leave by that time or you don't leave its war, i think that is pretty fair i mean in some previos game as you mentioned when i saw army with a full flag not moving from my land i immediately prepared for war
(wich in most cases led to it)

[Azmodin]

It will strain your relationship with a faction if you have troops just standing around in their country (it was said I think in the E3 interview where the Roman army in Egypt caused a -50 on their relationship I think).

So this time maybe you are not the aggressor if you attack those armies especially if your relationship to this faction isn't that good anyways.

Also this time you are not automatically bad if you declare war as some factions will like this and you get a reputation boost with them (for example if they are at war with the same faction).

[Igor85]

It will strain your relationship with a faction if you have troops just standing around in their country (it was said I think in the E3 interview where the Roman army in Egypt caused a -50 on their relationship I think).

So this time maybe you are not the aggressor if you attack those armies especially if your relationship to this faction isn't that good anyways.

Also this time you are not automatically bad if you declare war as some factions will like this and you get a reputation boost with them (for example if they are at war with the same faction).

Does not change the fact, that it's very annoying that the CPU walks through your land all the time. And seriously...you can't or don't want always declare war. And don't forget the risk of immediate declaration of war from the CPU as well. So other faction armies could attack you every time while trespassing. This risk will increase again because of limited armys and only city garrisons. Armys camping besides an important city could get ugly. I'm veeery concerned about the cancelation of military access, for me it was a step forward in previous games. As already said this was very, very, very annoying in early TW games!

[Kinjo]

Well this was a big problem in RTW and M2TW and the complaints are what brought about the hard region lock military access in ETW through S2TW. Some quotes from another thread that are related to this topic:

Would be ridiculous and a huge backstep. Military Access for entering others territories is a must-have (except u want to have war)!!

So Factions can march threw your territory without a declaration of war? I hope it doesn't go back to the whole they have and army right outside my city and if I attack them then I'm the bad guy BS from older games.

I didn't like the feature of foreign army in your land before, because the AI attacked you the instant they felt they could.

Also if you look at the 3 relic threads I posted from the RTW/M2TW era you can clearly see players were not happy about how the Ai would wonder about aimlessly into neutral territory. All I'm asking since I don't believe Dom Star (lead campaign dev) was with the TW series when RTW came out is they don't forget about how annoying this was for the players. Better yet give us the gameplay features we need to deal with this because it's going to happen. A diplomacy feature to ask a faction to remove themselves from your land and the ability to physically block a Neutral faction from entering your lands would be a better solution imo.

[kamikazee786]

hey i just had a thought, what if the Roman army in the E3 demo was in Egypt but with military access from the Egyptians

That way the Roman army could certainly stay in Egypt without making it an act of war (which is later of course triggered by attacking the Egyptians), remember that Egypt was a roman vassal at this time, so that would automatically grant them military access into their lands

[Kinjo]

If you actually listen to what Al says he makes it pretty clear you don't need military access to enter a region.

[SamueleD]

Here's what they should do, imo:
-If an army is in raid mode it will cause damage to the province, but it will also rapidly worsen relationships and eventually be considered an act of aggression hopefully, it would not make sense if the owner of the territory is considered the aggressor.
-If an army is not in raid mode it won't be damaging the province, so it won't incur in a penalty.
-Some kind of penalty or "tactical retreat" must incur if you declare war or are too near to a city, to avoid the "oh, I was just passing by your capital and by chance I declared war when it was empty" exploit.
-Hopefully there is the possibility of saying "Get the **** out of my land or I'll make you" and if it does come to war the "invaded" can be considered the defender
-If you attack an army (that has no military access) in your territory it's like you have been attacked.

[magpie]

The original RTW had for the Romans an underdeveloped system, Where the senate would tell you to leave an allies region if you tresspased with an army without a military agreement with the allied faction. Trouble is it did not extend to other factions wandering onto your territory with their armies. So thats an area that badly needs sorting in the new Rome.

[Kinjo]

Here's what they should do, imo:
-If an army is in raid mode it will cause damage to the province, but it will also rapidly worsen relationships and eventually be considered an act of aggression hopefully, it would not make sense if the owner of the territory is considered the aggressor.
-If an army is not in raid mode it won't be damaging the province, so it won't incur in a penalty.
-Some kind of penalty or "tactical retreat" must incur if you declare war or are too near to a city, to avoid the "oh, I was just passing by your capital and by chance I declared war when it was empty" exploit.
-Hopefully there is the possibility of saying "Get the **** out of my land or I'll make you" and if it does come to war the "invaded" can be considered the defender
-If you attack an army (that has no military access) in your territory it's like you have been attacked.

+rep but there still needs to be a way to block neutral faction from entering your lands with your own armies.

The original RTW had for the Romans an underdeveloped system, Where the senate would tell you to leave an allies region if you tresspased with an army without a military agreement with the allied faction. Trouble is it did not extend to other factions wandering onto your territory with their armies. So thats an area that badly needs sorting in the new Rome.

It's good to see the some of the old guard are still around.

[Dan113112]

Maybe they can do something similar to Civ V where you'll be able to tell another faction to leave your lands. if they don't there could be war. I don't think this is a step back for CA. What's realistically stopping me form putting my foot across the Canada/US border? Nothing. The region lock in ETW through to TWS2 is very unrealistic.

This whole argument reminds me of the opening scene in the movie Troy (2004):

Agamemnon: [approaches king] Good day for the crows.
Triopas: Remove your army from my land.
Agamemnon: Why, I like your land, I think we'll stay. I like your soldiers too.
Triopas: They won't fight for you.
Agamemnon: That's what the Messenians said, and the Acardians, and the Opeians, now they all fight for me.

[SamueleD]

Maybe they can do something similar to Civ V where you'll be able to tell another faction to leave your lands. if they don't there could be war. I don't think this is a step back for CA. What's realistically stopping me form putting my foot across the Canada/US border? Nothing. The region lock in ETW through to TWS2 is very unrealistic.

This whole argument reminds me of the opening scene in the movie Troy (2004):

Agamemnon: [approaches king] Good day for the crows.
Triopas: Remove your army from my land.
Agamemnon: Why, I like your land, I think we'll stay. I like your soldiers too.
Triopas: They won't fight for you.
Agamemnon: That's what the Messenians said, and the Acardians, and the Opeians, now they all fight for me.

It's not really a "region lock" it's more like "if you enter my lands without permission then we are at war, but yeah, sure, walk by". Which is not that unrealistic, the only problem is that factions in TW seems to guard military access jealously, which is silly, because if a tiny one-region faction stands between me and my enemy it should be happy that I grant it the possibility of just letting me pass, instead of kicking them off the map, without even noticing it. The AI of small factions behaves like it thinks it has a choice, that it has something you want and can actually negotiate for it, because invading it and destroying it would be hard, truth is: it is actually less of a bother to destroy a little faction rather than politely ask for their permission to cross their lands, maybe even for a small symbolic sum, as they usually refuse, offended somehow. The AI of TW is a proud, stupid, quarrelsome, unreasonable man, who thinks too highly of himself and just doesn't know when to quit and shut up, and usually pays dearly for it.

[Coleus]

Didn't the British Empire get pulled into the First World War due to unauthorised Germans on Belgian soil?

There should be diplomatic penalties for going into someone else's land without permission - likewise it should be a given that if you're allied, your troops (and theirs) are welcome.

I respected the authority of the Senate to punish me in RTW, although sometimes a multi-point sneak attack was the best option (particularly when trying to bring down the inevitably super-powerful Egyptians) so I took the diplomatic and popularity hit.

I understood why they brought in the no access zones in ETW, although I think they missed a trick by not tying the diplomatic penalties of unauthorised access to triggering alliances i.e Belgium 1914.

[eregost]

It's not really a "region lock" it's more like "if you enter my lands without permission then we are at war, but yeah, sure, walk by". Which is not that unrealistic, the only problem is that factions in TW seems to guard military access jealously, which is silly, because if a tiny one-region faction stands between me and my enemy it should be happy that I grant it the possibility of just letting me pass, instead of kicking them off the map, without even noticing it. The AI of small factions behaves like it thinks it has a choice, that it has something you want and can actually negotiate for it, because invading it and destroying it would be hard, truth is: it is actually less of a bother to destroy a little faction rather than politely ask for their permission to cross their lands, maybe even for a small symbolic sum, as they usually refuse, offended somehow. The AI of TW is a proud, stupid, quarrelsome, unreasonable man, who thinks too highly of himself and just doesn't know when to quit and shut up, and usually pays dearly for it.

You just need to give them military access in return and they'll accept.

[MarkusAntonius]

I didn't noticed this was back untill now. And i'm very happy to know this. Boring was to be unable to cross to certain places and have to ask permission or declare war. It took off the freedom of movement in the games. Felt myself trapped in regions and having to conquer capitals to acquire mercenaries. Finally CA is going back to it's origins. To the true Total War i've like to play in the old days. Free movement, Mercenary presencial recruitment and i hope forts and even watchtowers be back too.

[Eofor]

Didn't the British Empire get pulled into the First World War due to unauthorised Germans on Belgian soil?

This wasn't the twentieth century-cross border raiding was common regardless of whether polities were actually at war or not and the states of then didn't have clearly defined borders like they do now.

[Cheap]

Here's what they should do, imo:
-If an army is in raid mode it will cause damage to the province, but it will also rapidly worsen relationships and eventually be considered an act of aggression hopefully, it would not make sense if the owner of the territory is considered the aggressor.
-If an army is not in raid mode it won't be damaging the province, so it won't incur in a penalty.
-Some kind of penalty or "tactical retreat" must incur if you declare war or are too near to a city, to avoid the "oh, I was just passing by your capital and by chance I declared war when it was empty" exploit.
-Hopefully there is the possibility of saying "Get the **** out of my land or I'll make you" and if it does come to war the "invaded" can be considered the defender
-If you attack an army (that has no military access) in your territory it's like you have been attacked.

Actually that's more or less what we were told about how it was going to work: they didn't precise wether a AI raiding army in your land is a casus belli or not. Anyway, it's not a good omen if it dislikes you that much.

Didn't the British Empire get pulled into the First World War due to unauthorised Germans on Belgian soil?

There should be diplomatic penalties for going into someone else's land without permission - likewise it should be a given that if you're allied, your troops (and theirs) are welcome.

I respected the authority of the Senate to punish me in RTW, although sometimes a multi-point sneak attack was the best option (particularly when trying to bring down the inevitably super-powerful Egyptians) so I took the diplomatic and popularity hit.

I understood why they brought in the no access zones in ETW, although I think they missed a trick by not tying the diplomatic penalties of unauthorised access to triggering alliances i.e Belgium 1914.

I don't think we can compare early XXth and BC area.
World diplomacy was more Mediterranean centred, civilized people didn't care about barbarians and how other civilizations treated them. It was also more treaty oriented (pacta sunt servanda), I mean for exemple the absence of help from Roma to Saguntum while they were allied harmed seriously their "worldwide" authority and credibility.

[Markas]

Trespassing factions neutral to you were a real bane in R:TW and M2:TW. Empire sorted that out, but it really restricted your freedom if you wanted to be a jerk but not necessarily go to war with a faction. If the faction you are trespassing on is much weaker than you then trespass away with impunity I say. If they are as strong or stronger it should be tantamount to a Casus Belli. Let's see how the diplomacy side balances it out.

[Igor85]

Trespassing factions neutral to you were a real bane in R:TW and M2:TW.

This troubles me most, too. Hopefully CA will manage that other factions will hold back trespassing or at least I can tell them to leave (or war).
I have trust in CA. Otherwise it would be a huge backstep.