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Thread: Wales - some corrections

  1. #1
    ceretic's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Wales - some corrections

    You need some help from someone who knows a little bit about Welsh history and geography. I appreciate making a mod is a lot of work so, anyway, allow me to come to the rescue a little bit. I am going to edit some of the files and post them on here, perhaps you can make a patch or something. FYI the Welsh royal family is utterly wrong and disappointing really because the material you need is right at hand thanks to something like Wikipedia. Llywelyn's father was Gruffudd and he had only one daughter, Gwenllian, never a son. His brother, Dafydd, did have two sons and several daughters. Llywellyn had two further brothers, one older (Owain) and one younger (Rhodri).

    The regions of Wales too are annoying to say the least... let's go for consistency. If you are going to call areas after Welsh realms why go and call one "St. David's Region" when really it ought to be called "Dyfed". Deheubarth without Dyfed is actually called "Seissyllwg"... The banner used by Wales under Llywellyn was a quartered red and yellow flag 'countercharged' with lions 'guardant'.. the "red dragon" flag you use is a version of the one raised by Henry Tudor in 1485 some two hundred years later.

    The correct flag of Wales (and it was never called "Kingdom of Wales" it was the "Principality of Wales") is here:



    And whilst I am on it... "Sutton Hoo Province" ???? This is the name of an archaeological site... the area you have identified is part of Essex and Suffolk. You have spelled "Surrey" wrong as "Surry" and given the modern administrative name of "Argyle and Bute" as the name of a town, call areas such as Kent names like "Kent Region" which is totally unnecessary (because it is a county so obviously it is a "region") there are loads of other examples like this... the list goes on and on.

    The files beneath amend some of the worst geographic errors and make the Welsh royal family realistic. Users will need to identify the correct files in the appropriate mod folder and then replace them with these:

    descr_names.txt
    imperial_campaign_regions_and_settlement_names.txt
    names.txt
    descr_strat.txt

    I don't want to wind anybody up but this needed to be done!

    Paid codi pais ar ôl piso
    Last edited by ceretic; June 16, 2013 at 08:54 PM.
    "Morydd left not one man of the army alive, but ordered each to be brought before him, one after another, to be killed and then flayed; and he rested for a short while, and then had the others to be flayed alive and afterwards burned." Ystorya Brenhined y Brytanyeit, Jesus MS. LXI


  2. #2

    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    I'm no expert in Welsh flags but that flag you show seems to the Welsh Royalist flag since 1962 only it sems to have the crown missing from the middle. I found this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Gwynedd.svg or maybe this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gl...27s_Banner.svg. Mind you they could easily use this one which is so similar to England's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Al...of_Gwynedd.svg.

  3. #3
    ceretic's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    I do not wish to sound rude but you are no expert in welsh flags!!... the flag (posted) is the banner of the house of Aberffraw, first raised by Iorwerth ab Owain (the father of Llywelyn the Great) c.1170. It is based on the guardant lion of Rhodri Mawr (a red lion guardant on a gold field "armed and langued azur") which was 'countercharged'. It was then used by all the Welsh rulers upto Dafydd (x.1284). A clever variant was adopted by Owain Glyndwr in 1400.

    If you go to http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-wa-og.html you can read all about these lion variants documented extensively as being used at the time of this mod. The main writer on this page (written in 2002) is someone called James Frankcom, which is actually me. I had identified the difference between two flags (that born by the rulers of Gwynedd and that born later by Owain Glyndwr) by comparing the blazonry of the two armorial devices recorded in heraldic records.

    The banner used by the English Prince of Wales since the 1960s is the same flag as used in Gwynedd in the 12th and 13th Centuries plus with, as you rightly say, a green shield etc. The image I uploaded to crwflags was made by me after removing that shield.

    If you go to this page on Wikipedia http://tt.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A...of_Gwynedd.jpg you will see that I was also the original uploader to Wikipedia of the flag of Gwynedd in 2007, which was later revamped by whiz kids using vector programs.

    The Welsh dragon standard was rarely seen, comparatively. A gold dragon or 'Ddraig Aur' which made reference to the so-called Mab Darogan or "son of prophecy" was occasionally seen, however the dragon was rampant and it was on a white field. The red dragon standard got most of its use from the Tudor dynasty. A more frequent battle standard used during the time of our mod (used alongside the four lions guardant counter-charged which was the most commonly used flag by armies under Llywelyn) was a purple flag featuring the "cross of neith" - a relic maintained by the royal house of Gwynedd at Conwy Abbey. The rulers of Powys Fadog who were close allies of Llywelyn had a distinctive banner known as the "black lion of powys" and was a black rampant lion on a white field.

    I am working on revamping some of the files for this mod, giving authentic ancillary titles, renaming some of the regions_settlements, making a few changes to expanded and descr_strat to improve realism. I will upload all again very soon when complete and tested so ignore the uploads above for now.

    Cross of Neith


    Black Lion of Powys
    Last edited by ceretic; June 19, 2013 at 01:23 AM.
    "Morydd left not one man of the army alive, but ordered each to be brought before him, one after another, to be killed and then flayed; and he rested for a short while, and then had the others to be flayed alive and afterwards burned." Ystorya Brenhined y Brytanyeit, Jesus MS. LXI


  4. #4

    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    I do not wish to sound rude rude either but if you would have read the first line I in fact wrote 'I am no expert on Welsh flags'. I was merely pointing out that after a brief bit of research by yours truly I found your dates did not tally. And the links I posted seem to suggest the Welsh were using a different flag, whether it is inaccurate is not my concern really I just was adding some more input.

    Talking of flags is there any tutorial about showing how you can input your own flag? I would love to put in the Anglo-saxon flag, White dragon on a red background. Although not historically accurate for the time period of the game it adds to the enjoyment.

  5. #5
    ceretic's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    LOL you said "I'm no expert on Welsh flags but"... but no matter - it is easy to misunderstand the tone of written comments ...

    I'm great at research and amending txt files but banners... I've tried and failed. I get stuck in the dds/svg/texture conundrum not knowing what needs to be where. Anyone know how to do banners? Also, let me say this - this mod by AJStoner is great, there are some really good original features but certain aspects regarding geography, historicity, royalty... I think it can be polished up to be amazing...

    I am amending some txt files... should be completed in a few days...whilst I do that, does anyone know how to do banners who can help? I'm thinking the banners should be amended so that the four-lions guardant counter-charged flag of Llywelyn is used (see first post) and the red lion rampant with border on a gold field (the Scottish royal flag) used for Scotland.
    Last edited by ceretic; June 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM.
    "Morydd left not one man of the army alive, but ordered each to be brought before him, one after another, to be killed and then flayed; and he rested for a short while, and then had the others to be flayed alive and afterwards burned." Ystorya Brenhined y Brytanyeit, Jesus MS. LXI


  6. #6

    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    I don't see how saying 'but' makes me an expert on welsh flags I was only offering an opinion but no matter.

    The best I have seen on changing the banners is changing the colours only. The tutorial is on here for Medieval II in the workshops. I have been involved in various mods over the years, NTW (Lordz), Also a commercial venture, Chivary total war amongst others. this was mainly forum, beta testing and history research and write ups it was a lot of painstaking work at times and not just for one faction either. I do tend to agree with you having a historical mod is very worthwhile but this needs to be done for all factions otherwise it wouldn't be worth doing no?

    This mod is certainly good and I enjoy it for what it is. I to think some historical context would greatly enhance the mod, I think the Longbowman are under powered. I can remember having a long drawn out debate while involved in the ntw mod (napoleonic total war) and the debate was Longbows v Muskets. It wasn't as clear cut as you would think, I was actually arguing for the Muskets but had my mind changed enough to think it was close between the two.

    Anyway as far as this mod goes it is a lot of work undertaking a historical mod and you will not please everybody, it certainly is safer loosely basing the mod on history. A good way would be to let individuals do it and share files to people who want it. One mod I was involved with had a bloke on there who did all the flags and banners and other art work and he took requests on adding people's own banners so they could have that in game which was pretty cool but you have to have someone willing to do it or have someone kindly do a tutorial.

  7. #7
    ceretic's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    I have been editing some of the text files (names, descr_names, expanded, export_ancillaries, imperial_campaign_regions_and_settlements, descr_strat) to improve the realism.

    I have completed England and Wales. The changes I have made include:

    Complete overhaul of title system to improve realism. Titles include changes to the "crowns" so England has "Saint Edward's Crown" rather than simply "English Crown", the Welsh have "Corun Arthur" (which was a real thing). The titles have been overhauled as well so that the Welsh regional titles include "King of Powys; crowned with the Talaith of Elisig", "King of Gwynedd, crowned with the Talaith Aberffraw" and "King of Deheubarth, crowned with the Talaith Dinefwr." The English titles have been changed so that regional titles are styled "Earl of..." where appropriate (based on earldoms active in 1260 including Earl of Lincoln, Earl of Surrey, Earl of Cornwall, Earl of Warwick etc). For both factions historic characters have been added (nobles have been renamed to do this) and changes made to families where appropriate.

    In Wales this has meant including the nobles Maredudd of Deheubarth (King of Deheubarth), Rhys of Deheubarth and Madog of Powys (King of Powys). Dafydd, the brother of Llywelyn is now the heir and is styled "Lord Dafydd" and has the title "Edling of Wales". Llywelyn is styled "Prince Llywelyn", he has the "Coron Arthur" and the title "King of Gwynedd and Lord of Snowdonia". The Welsh royal dynasty has been overhauled so they have the right names and the right children. This name of this faction has been changed from "The Welsh" to "Cymru".

    In England the lords have been renamed so we have Henry de Lacy (Earl of Lincoln), Roger Mortimer (Earl of March), William de Beauchamp (Earl of Warwick) and Richard, Earl of Cornwall. Mortimer commands a small army made up of Welsh militia and archers close to Shrewsbury. Prince Edward now has the title "Earl of Chester".

    I have also renamed some regions in both Wales and England. The region named "St. David's Region" is now named "Dyfed". The regions of "Bedegraine" becomes Northamptonshire and "Carohaise" Warwickshire. All the other regions in England are named after the counties they most closely represent without the suffix "region".

    I have changed the Welsh faction colour so it is orange with a red dragon rather than green - orange and red are the colours on their royal banner (see above). I would like to change their banner symbol to the four lions as discussed but don't know how to do this (NEED HELP).

    As for the Baron's Alliance... I am toying with the idea of making it an independent "Northumbria" ruled by a 'king of the north' in York. Nevertheless, I have renamed the northern regions and titles to better reflect reality (e.g. Duke of Lancaster (not "Duke of Lancashire"), Lord Warden of the Northern Marches and Prince of Cumberland to name two additions)...

    I am starting to look at Ireland and Scotland...

    I welcome your views. I think I should have some files to upload in a couple of days...
    Last edited by ceretic; June 19, 2013 at 05:29 PM.
    "Morydd left not one man of the army alive, but ordered each to be brought before him, one after another, to be killed and then flayed; and he rested for a short while, and then had the others to be flayed alive and afterwards burned." Ystorya Brenhined y Brytanyeit, Jesus MS. LXI


  8. #8

    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    Sounds like some interesting changes. For help with the modding side of it I'd suggest asking in the Mod Workshop or looking to see if there's already a tutorial on changing banners in there.

  9. #9
    ceretic's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    I've had a good look and the only tutorial is this one here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...about-banners!

    The instructions in the second part are far too vague and not easy to follow... it is not detailed enough and I have tried to follow them but got lost when it doesn't work... I need to ask someone some questions really...
    "Morydd left not one man of the army alive, but ordered each to be brought before him, one after another, to be killed and then flayed; and he rested for a short while, and then had the others to be flayed alive and afterwards burned." Ystorya Brenhined y Brytanyeit, Jesus MS. LXI


  10. #10

    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    Shame about the banners and flags. I'd love to use the royal standard for the English. Sounds like you have made progress with the text side of things. Perhaps a pm to someone involved in the mod? Or perhaps find a mod that is currently very active and put in a request there?

  11. #11
    ceretic's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    I'd love to use the royal standard for the English.
    The three golden lions on red are the royal arms of England, aren't they? Blazon: "Gules, three lions passant guardant in pale or armed and langued azure"

    Anyway... here are some amended files to improve historicity in this mod... see my outline above. I have also made some appropriate changes to Scotland.

    Download these file and then copy and paste into the directories within the Rule Britannia mod files as indicated.

    expanded.txt (data/text)
    export_ancillaries.txt (data/text)
    imperial_campaign_regions_and_settlement_names.txt (data/text)
    names.txt (data/text)
    descr_strat.txt (data/world/maps/campaign/imperial_campaign)
    descr_names.txt (data)
    Last edited by ceretic; June 21, 2013 at 12:20 PM.
    "Morydd left not one man of the army alive, but ordered each to be brought before him, one after another, to be killed and then flayed; and he rested for a short while, and then had the others to be flayed alive and afterwards burned." Ystorya Brenhined y Brytanyeit, Jesus MS. LXI


  12. #12

    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    Yes the three golden lions are but I prefer the quartered Royal Standard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ro...1340-1367).svg. Perhaps 1340 is too late? But then I would prefer the Anglo-Saxon flag of the White dragon. But then without anyone to show us how it is but a dream, lol. Oh one thing I found out the three lions on the English flag are not lions they are leopards, hahaha. This was on QI recently.

    Thanks for the amended files will defintely download and take a look. Thank You.


    PS If I dropped these files in would they show in my save game? Thanks again.

  13. #13
    ceretic's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    I'm not sure QI is quite right... the three lions are described as "lioncels" which means "small lions" and not specifically leopards...

    I'm not sure how those files would work with saved games.
    "Morydd left not one man of the army alive, but ordered each to be brought before him, one after another, to be killed and then flayed; and he rested for a short while, and then had the others to be flayed alive and afterwards burned." Ystorya Brenhined y Brytanyeit, Jesus MS. LXI


  14. #14

    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    Here's some changes that you might be interested in regarding a more realistic Wales faction and a few other small changes. Delete map.rwm file and extract this data file to your main R_B mod folder. Backup before use.

    New Banners, Symbols and Badges

    Banners
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Symbols
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Notice the existence of the Menai Straight!

    New Units, out with the unrealistic old and in with the new.

    Bechgyn Rhyfelwyr
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The Brythoniad, being robust celts, still hold to their pre-Roman celtic war style and Bechgyn Rhefelwyr make excellent skirmishers. They are the youngest warriors of the local tribe (many as young as 14 years old) and are expert in ambush and feigned retreat. Being well suited to rough and craggy terrain and equiped with javelin, spear and shield, these lads make an excellent contribution to Brythoniaid armies.

    Rhyfelwyr
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    When the Bechgyn become men, usually having killed their first enemy they are are known as the Rhyfelwyr, 'warriors'. These men stand in the shield wall, making up the core of the Welsh infantry. They fight in the traditional celtic manner; lightly armoured in padded leather, with small shield they throw javelins at their enemy before charging home with sword in hand. They haven't forgotten what they learned as Bechgyn, they have honed their skills; well suited to rough and craggy terrain, these troops can make a vital contribution to any Welsh army.

    Rhyfelwyr Campwyrau
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Rhyfelwyr Campwyrau, 'Champion Warriors' are the most skilled and experience of the Rhyfelwyr. Having survied many battles, the Campwyrau stand toe to toe with some of the most skilled infantry in the world. They fight in the traditional celtic manner; with small shields they throw javelins at their enemy before charging home with sword in hand. They haven't forgotten what they learned as Bechgyn, they have honed their skills to a deadly pinnacle and are expert in ambush and hand to hand combat.

    Wyr Meirch Mathrafal
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The House of Mathrafal controls a substantial amount of land in the Kingdom of Powys and their stables provide the King with excellent cavalry. Unlike their English counterparts, Mathrafal Horsemen prefer the mobility of light armour, armed with a javelin, Wyr Meirch Mathrafal are well equiped to carry out their favoured hit and run tactics on the rough Welsh terrain.

    Wyr Meirch Rhyfelwyr
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Wyr Meirch Rhyfelwyr, 'Warrior Horsemen' make excellent cavalry. Unlike their English counterparts, they prefer the mobility of light armour and the traditional celtic use of a javelin. They have some skill in close quarters utilising a sword and shield but won't last long against the heavily armed knights of England.

    Teulu
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Serving as bodyguards to the Welsh nobility, these elite horsemen are the most highly trained warriors in the army of Wales. Despite lances being vogue for armed cavalry in the west, these men continue to operate in the traditional Celtic style. Able to hurl their javelins before charging home, these excellent troops switch to their swords for hand to hand combat. Mail armour gives them the same protection as their contemporary knights.

    Codi Gwaywffyn
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Welsh commoners and peasants who have been levied into local militias to defend towns, roads and bolster armies. Growing up in the harsh environment of the Welsh tundra gives the Welsh extra experience in the use of the spear. They can afford little armour but these units are useful in defence.

    Arfey Gwaywffyn
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    These Welsh spearmen have taken the lessons learned from the schiltrom and added more armour, for protection from arrows and bolts, mobility and longer spears. These units are useful against armoured cavalry and can resist good infantry. Their lack of shields makes them vulnerable.

    Gwaywffyn
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The Welsh are renowned for the expert use of two weapons in particular; the longbow and the spear. The Gwaywffyn are the elite in welsh spear wielders. These units are deadly against armoured cavalry and can resist good infantry. Their lack of shields makes them vulnerable.


    Faction Swap, swapped the random Denmark faction for a Marchia Walliae faction centred around south Wales with Roger Mortimer as the FL.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Went with five starting regions. They are basically the same as the English and are tied up in alliance and military access with the English as well as being at war with the Welsh. The Marcher Lords (apologies if I’m teaching you to suck eggs here) were pretty much autonomous to the King of England but did pay homage to him. This faction is non playable but there is potential here for a quasi Welsh/English faction which has access to the Morgannwg units I’ve dropped from Wales. Perhaps a future project if someone's interested.

    Repositioning of English Rebels under Simon de Montfort
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    By 1264 (this mod begins in 1260) the Barons under Simon de Montfort had control of the entire South East of England and Henry III and Edward were both prisoner in the Tower of London so I employed some artistic licence here.


    Enjoy
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by colesy606; August 23, 2013 at 09:10 AM. Reason: Major changes to banners etc
    "A dark age indeed, no plumbing! No electricity! No nothing! Oh, hang it all." Merlin.

  15. #15
    ceretic's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    fantastic etc
    Last edited by ceretic; August 22, 2013 at 07:48 PM.
    "Morydd left not one man of the army alive, but ordered each to be brought before him, one after another, to be killed and then flayed; and he rested for a short while, and then had the others to be flayed alive and afterwards burned." Ystorya Brenhined y Brytanyeit, Jesus MS. LXI


  16. #16
    ceretic's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    This is all looking really good... a little bit more work and it will be perfect... and how RB should have been

    (ignore attachments below, they are stuck and cannot be removed)
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by ceretic; August 23, 2013 at 07:59 AM.
    "Morydd left not one man of the army alive, but ordered each to be brought before him, one after another, to be killed and then flayed; and he rested for a short while, and then had the others to be flayed alive and afterwards burned." Ystorya Brenhined y Brytanyeit, Jesus MS. LXI


  17. #17
    ceretic's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    Some tested and updated files for you colesy606. These files have all been taken from your patch, amended slightly and then tested to see the game works, it does.

    Summary of works:

    Improved spelling and removed typos from campaign descriptions. Changed name for "kingdom of wales" (never used) to "principality of wales" and some other slight historical changes. Amended some parts of expanded so the titles of the daughters of lords is not "princess" and the styles are consistent and historical. The ancillary titles are included with real titles (e.g. "Earl of Chester", "Mormaer of Moray" etc depending on where the titles are based). Other characters have appropriate titles based on historic truisms - Simon de Montfort is "Earl of Leicester", Richard Plantagent is "Earl of Cornwall" amongst other things. Some names have been added to correspond to changes to the descr_strat file. Such names include John de Balliol. In descr_sm_factions.txt the colours have been adjusted to correspond better to "traditional" colours and the secondary colours toned down so the borders of the provinces are not so stark. I have made changes to descr_strat so that the Scottish royal family is historically true, the heir is John de Balliol as it was, he is not royal but a "named character" and heir. Other changes have been made to insert ancillary titles throughout and other aesthetic goodies.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    "Morydd left not one man of the army alive, but ordered each to be brought before him, one after another, to be killed and then flayed; and he rested for a short while, and then had the others to be flayed alive and afterwards burned." Ystorya Brenhined y Brytanyeit, Jesus MS. LXI


  18. #18
    ceretic's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    Colesy - once you have synchronised descr_strat (yours and mine) would you be able to put those text files (as above) into your patch and then re-upload in a new posting below?

    I need to add this one as well, I made one change to this:
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by ceretic; August 23, 2013 at 10:16 AM.
    "Morydd left not one man of the army alive, but ordered each to be brought before him, one after another, to be killed and then flayed; and he rested for a short while, and then had the others to be flayed alive and afterwards burned." Ystorya Brenhined y Brytanyeit, Jesus MS. LXI


  19. #19

    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    data_1.7zFair play Ceretic, those are some nice finishing touches you've made there, the map looks the bees knees.
    The changes to the strat file are complete and the modified files implemented into one shiny new package.

    I'm enjoying playing this game a lot

    Cheers Ceretic on a job well done!
    (a final thought, it might be worth pointing AJStoner in this direction as he'll probably be interested in using a lot of this in a future RB v2.0)

    [EDIT] New instructions, delete map.rwm, extract the contents of both data files (data_1 and data_2 see next post) into the data folder for R_B.
    Last edited by colesy606; August 30, 2013 at 10:44 AM. Reason: Scotts family tree update
    "A dark age indeed, no plumbing! No electricity! No nothing! Oh, hang it all." Merlin.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Wales - some corrections

    Second data file attached data_2.7z
    "A dark age indeed, no plumbing! No electricity! No nothing! Oh, hang it all." Merlin.

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