The ENCYCLOPEDIA of HELLENISTIC HELMETS + screens RTW2 of those helmets (Updated 8th August)

[AnthoniusII]

Very interesting attempt to gather REAL helmets for an accurate presentation of the Hellenistic World (Rome was part of the world before creates a world of its own).
BRAVO!

[Doe3000]

The Thracian helmets look the most practical, but I've got to admit I like the Phrygian types too, even though they are the basis for the Smurf's cap. I like Hellenistic period helmets for the simple reason they are Bronze and as a result they haven't rusted away, unlike the Iron helmets of the Romans and Celts.

[Agisilaos]

All the helmets KLA lists are of Greek design and originate in Greece.The names have nothing to do with the origin of the helmets but we know for sure that the artisans who made them had in mind actual caps or hats of various origins for their inspiration.Greek metallurgy was sophisticated enough (exquisite casting techniques due to the bronze statues experiences) to produce realistically reproduced forms.
We know for sure that Thracian helmets are of Athenian origin due to the very early representation of them in Athenian pottery (5th cent BC)and the Athenian presence and colonies in Thrace which may explain the inspiration or the name . Phrygian can be classified as modification of the Thracian which instead of a Thracian form of hat/cap the inspiration is the phrygian cap.

+1 good post.

[torongill]

Possbly created originally in Greece - of course, the Odrysians were Athenian allies in the Peloponnesian war and Thracian mercenaries were probably used by both sides; however, the fact remains that by far most Thracian helmets were found in Thrace, in thracian graves, which suggests local production. Unless you want to claim that everything was "made in Greece" and "the barbarians" had no idea what metal was.

[karamazovmm]

great job, if you did one about armour...

[Kranos]

Still they were first widely used by thracians even as early in Peloponesian war. And again the origin doesnt say very much about the areas from they were adopted and which people first widely used them. Most of the greek classical helmets have evolved from the Ilyrian ones for example.

and even so restrictively speaking you cant generalize you assumptions to all the helmets that are clasify as Thracians. Plus lets not forget that even if the types were quite a few, there were ridiculously many variations, many of them, "trademark", if we can call it this way, of different thracian tribes.

By the way, my favourite helmet-thracian type 3 its based on one from the 4th century BC - a bronze helmet found in Bryastovets, Bourgas district, now in the Sofia Archeological Museum. (The original had iron cheekguards, which were added in a replica). I recall to have seen this worn by thracian mercenaries depicted on some greek potery with fight scenes from peloponesian war. Do you have anyr clues that was pretty commonly used by greeks too?

[He111]

Nice work +rep.

Missing variations of the Corinthian Helmet.

[neoptolemos]

Possbly created originally in Greece - of course, the Odrysians were Athenian allies in the Peloponnesian war and Thracian mercenaries were probably used by both sides; however, the fact remains that by far most Thracian helmets were found in Thrace, in thracian graves, which suggests local production. Unless you want to claim that everything was "made in Greece" and "the barbarians" had no idea what metal was.

Possibly? I don't think so
There is no serious debate here torongil it is more like a widelly accepted fact as it is the exact same thing for Phrygian ones.
(@

♅Sturm und Drang♅ as well as you have requested examples)

Both are productions of sophisticated metallurgy which represents actual forms something Classical Greek metallurgy is famous for.Illyrian helmets were found in Illyria but the helmet originates in Peloponese, the same goes with the Thracian ones.Chalcidean type helmets were used by Scythians and Thracians as well because you know Greeks were trading with all these people and Greek panoply were highly valued among many people around Greeks.Not to mention that it is probably an evolution of the Chalcidean helmets.

Now Greek armour in Balkans:

http://www.academia.edu/2026130/A._R..._Ocna_Sibiului

(The Chalcideans in Thrace are considered undoubtedly as of Greek origin in the article and they are found in Northern Balkans as well)

And Thrace in particular:

http://www.academia.edu/738235/Odyrs...nt_and_tactics

Armour
Armour was initially restricted to the noble cavalry, but in the fourth century many troops began wearing helmets, and peltasts started wearing greaves. There was a marked difference be-tween northern and southern Thrace, with the northernThracians wearing Skythian-style panoplies, and the southern Thracians wearing Greek equipment (with Thracian alterations).Thracian warriors commonly used armour that was older than the rest of their equipment, or a mixture of armour and weapons from different styles and periods.
Some types of armour persisted long after they ceased to be used elsewhere.Assuming burials reflected actual practice, Thracians in this period often wore a mixture of Thracian and Greek equipment, and only one or two pieces of armour, not a complete panoply.Finally, Thracian troops of the Thracian client-kingdom wereequipped in the Roman style which may have meant that they wore Roman mail shirts and helmets, and carried Roman shields. They continued to use these when they became Thracian auxiliaries in Roman service

.

Except if you want to argue that Thracian tribes possessed the same level of metallurgy (that being said I don't consider "barbarian" metallurgy "primitive" but Greek metallurgy produced exquisite realistic forms something "barbarian" metallurgy has not, or at least in the same degree-helmets are part of that tradition) as Athenians or the Athenians left out Thracians depicted with helmets which is absurd.

Thracian in 5th cent Attic pottery:


Greek hoplite 5th cent with "Thracian helmet":

Greek Hoplite vs. Persian Soldier, Greek Red-Figure Amphora, c. 520-480 BCE.


Alas when I read of Connonlly's "Greece and Rome at war" there was no questioning of the origin.
Wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia...et#cite_note-2

The Phrygian helmet, also known as the Thracian helmet,^[1] was a type of helmet that originated inClassical Greece and was widely used^[2] in Thrace, Dacia, Magna Graecia and the Hellenistic world until well into the Roman Empire.

• ^ The naming conventions and typology of ancient helmets are of modern origin and do not reflect contemporary usage; Connolly, P. (1981) Greece and Rome at War. Macdonald Phoebus, London. ISBN 1-85367-303-X, p. 60: "Terms such as 'Illyrian' and 'Attic' are used in archaeology for convenience to denote a particular type of helmet and do not imply its origin."

The most common helmet found in Thracian sites is the Chalcidian helmet (Archibald, pp 201-202). Of the known forms of Chalcidian helmet, only the primitive version appears prior to the second half of the fourth century. This has a slight ridge separating the skull and sides, the neckguard recessed inwards; a curved opening for the ears; deep, rounded cheekpieces hammered out from the sides and a short nosepiece, frequently accentuated with a pair of stylized brows in low relief. A more advanced late fifth-century version from Rouets has a relatively high crown, longer, sickle-shaped cheekpieces, and long, pronounced eyebrows meeting in a curved V-shape across the front. Two bands of engraved ornament, tongues and guilloche, separate the skull from the sides. The neckguard is straight, with a slightly upturned lower edge. Hinged cheek-pieces appeared in the fourth century.
A few magnificent examples of Corinthian helmets have been found in Thrace, and a reconstruction of a Thracian noble wearing one of these helmets is shown at left. This early fifth century helmet has flattened sides, long cheek-pieces covering the whole face as far as the nosepiece, and a pronounced relief line encircling the eyes.
A warrior buried in Golyamata Mogila, Duvanli (in central Thrace), was equipped with a leather helmet strengthened with a bronze neckguard, visor, and cheekpieces decorated in low-relief patterns including volutes. These recall the elaborate versions of the 'Thracian' helmet form depicted on mid-fifth century Attic Red Figure Vases.

Later Helmets

The following text is closely based on pp 252-254 of Zosia Archibald's The Odrysian Kingdom of Thrace.
In the fourth century, both Thracian light cavalry and peltasts began to wear helmets. A variety of styles was worn. The older type of Chalkidian helmet found in fifth-century tombs with engraved, stylized eyebrows continued to be used well into the fourth century. The more advanced type has two variants, with fixed or hinged cheekpieces.
In the fixed form, the neckguard, shaped to fit the back of the neck, extends towards the shoulders, while the broad cheekpieces have vertical sides toward the cheeks, curving up at the back and over the ears. The brows are lightly profiled and there is a vestigal nosepiece. The crown is raked back sharply from the sides. Many helmets found in Thrace show signs of repeated wear and tear, with riveted inserts and tenons.
The helmets with hinged cheekpieces have a high, well-rounded crown from front to back. A gentle curve separates the skull form the straight neckguard,shaped at the lower edge. The tongue-shaped cheekpieces are longer.
Elaborate parade helmets of Greek type continued to be worn in central Thrace. Parts of a sheet gold composite version were found at Panagyurishte. The older-style Chalcidian helmets were worn by native Thracian troops, until the 'Phrygian' helmets arrived in Thrace with the invading Greek and Macedonian forces. Helmets with hinged cheekpieces might have belonged to Thracian commanding officers.
Cap- or hat-like helmets were widespread in the fourth century and early Hellenistic period. They were made of mostly made from bronze, but a Phrygian style helmet found at Pletena, in the Rhodopes mountains of Bulgaria was made of iron with a sheet of bronze to cover the lower face, moulded to imitate beard locks and a moustache. This helmet was found with a rhomphaia.

http://badaew.narod.ru/trakian/Helmets.htm

Now if you want to drive a debate purely based on wishful thinking and romantic nationalism be my guest but I don't think you are that kind of posters.

[Antiochus]

Thracian, Phrygian, Boeotian, Attic, Pilos, Chalcidian - are Greek origin helmets. All those helmets used by Greeks, Hellenistic Kingdoms (Ptolemaics, Seleucids, Pontians), Carthaginians and Thracians.

In game aren't variety of helmets. Per 1-2 of those styles. I hope will be more difference. Hope more Thracian styles.

[mentecato]

another KLA thread... another REP

[Ariamanesh]

Why people wrote 'what is point?' Why you ignore this hard work? If you aren't interested you should stop attack. Maybe some people will be interested in this thread. It is good thread, very interresting and learning. Thread could be good source for modding teams, or maybe CA will use it too? We don't know.

Perfect,Im agree.Some people here are just going to close their eyes and open their mouth for insult. Every body(include myself),! Please see and recognize the reasons of this thread first and then going to attack the thread poster.

[Antiochus]

I have a question - Negau helmet is a variant of Pilos or other style?

[Little Legionaire]

Thracian variants are incredible! I hope Jack Lusted creates more Thracian helmets for soldier models! And our community' knowledge on those specific matters are truly amazing. Nearly academic! Thanks a lot guys it was a pleasure to read

[-Concrete-]

Excellent thread. Good to see those in game images looking very similar.

[Kranos]

you should add a late macedonian variation of pilos called konos

It was featured on Macedonian coins from the reign of Philip V and Perseus and mentioned in one of the clauses of military regulation from Amphipolis -Military Decree of Amphipolis (c. 200 BC)- "konos" is mentioned as the helmet of phalangites.

τοὺς μὴ φέροντας τι τῶν καθηκόντων αὐτοῖς ὅπλων ζημιούτωσαν κατά τα γεγραμμένα· κοτθύβου ὀβολοὺς δύο, κώνου τὸ ἴσον, σαρίσης ὀβολοὺς τρεῖς, μαχαίρας τὸ ἴσον, κνημίδων ὀβολοὺς δύο, ἀσπίδος δραχμήν. Ἑπὶ δὲ τῶν ἡγεμόνων τῶν τε δεδηλωμένων ὅπλων τὸ διπλοῦν καὶ θώρακος δραχμὰς δύο, ἡμιθωρακίου δραχμήν. Λαμβανέτωσαν δὲ τὴν ζημίαν οἱ γραμματεῖς καὶ οἱ ἀρχυ[πηρέτ]αι, παραδείξαντες τῶι βασιλεῖ τοὺς ἠθετηκότας

those not bearing the weapons appropriate to them are to be fined according to the regulations: for the kotthybos, two obols, the same amount for the konos, three obols for the sarissa, the same for the makhaira, for the knemides two obols, for the aspis a drachma. In the case of hegemons (officers), double for the arms mentioned, two drachmas for the thorax, a drachma for the hemithorakion. The secretaries (grammateis) and the chief assistants (archyperetai) shall exact the penalty, after indicating the transgressors to the King (basileus)

it was depicted in the the Roma Surrectum mod too

[neoptolemos]

Athenian hoplite with Thracian helmet and muscle cuirass ap 470 BC

http://www.tmth.edu.gr/aet/thematic_areas/p448.html

And the realistic reconstruction:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Altamura Painter, 470-460 bce, Walters Art Museum.





here is another interesting type of helmet the hoplite in front wears:



Hellenistic helmet from Lebanon:




Connoly have made some grear illustrations of hellenistic helmets:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

An attic (Roman centurion) and AtticoThracian (Phalangite)

[KLAssurbanipal]

I added a couple of helmets. Tomorrow I will answer posts.

[Rhomphaiaphoros]

I've already expressed it via a rep comment, but I also want to say it publicly: Very interesting thread, many thanks to you, KLA, for creating this.

Also, @KLA / neoptolemos / anyone knowledgeable on the subject, I have a few questions regarding Helleni(sti)c helmets:

I have wondered for quite some time, what are the differences between Attic and Thracian helmets? I mean, most of the ancient helmets have clear, distinctive features which make it easy to tell them apart from other styles, like Phrygian with its uniquely shaped top, or Corinthian or Illyrian or Boetian or Pilos thanks to their overall shape. Yet, (don't kill me for saying this ) I fail to see such clear distinction between Attic and Thracian helmets. To my eyes:

1) the base shape of the two helmets is very similar
2) both include a similar neck-protector piece on the backside
3) both types I've most often seen with a visor-like shape on the forehead above the wearer's eyes
4) both can have a myriad of differently shaped cheek pieces
5) both can have a myriad of different crests on top, or no crest at all

Also, now that the last picture in neoptolemos' post also has an Attico-Thracian helmet in it, I must say that I'm even more confused regarding the differences of these two styles.

And another question, regarding the helmet of the Roman Centurion in neoptolemos' picture: how much would that one need to differ in order to be classed as a Chalcidian? I'm asking this because, (please do not kill me for this either ) if someone would have asked me "which helmet type is it?" I'm embarrassed to admit that I would have answered "(an open variant of) Chalcidian", judging by the shape of the forehead part, and especially the downward curve in the middle, just above the wearer's eyes. Am I missing something important, or have I simply misunderstood which features define which helmet type?

My thanks to anyone who can answer and explain these already in advance!

[Antiochus]

Why CA ignored some helmets of these? It is very interresting. If CA want make 700 units, so should be all of these helmets in the geme to better variety. 70% of CA's decisions are completely weird.

[Boztorgai_Khan]

+REP Nice Helmets.