The Italian Wars of 1521-1525

[Basileos Leandros I]

Culmination at the beautiful Battle of Pavia in 1525, but the Italian Wars were a period of turmoil and great battles between France, the Italian States and the Habsburg Empire and apart from the usual google and wikipedia, what other good websites and articles are available on them?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[hellheaven1987]

I always wonder why Italian Wars did not lead to an unified northern Italy... Perhaps Italians really lacked any imagination...

[RomanSoldier9001]

I always wonder why Italian Wars did not lead to an unified northern Italy... Perhaps Italians really lacked any imagination...

Or perhps not because of that "imagination" they didnt want a "boring" "nation-state" kind of thing.

[hellheaven1987]

Or perhps not because of that "imagination" they didnt want a "boring" "nation-state" kind of thing.

Well, Italians did have "cities-state" so they did have the concept of "statehood" just it was restricted only to cities.

[Baron Thunder-ten-tronckh]

What? The Florentines becoming a nation with the milanese? The Pisans with the Genovese? Quelle Horreur!

I believe the Italians might have been following on from the tradition of the ancient greek city states, whereby the city is seen as the ideal political unit, and exerts influence over the surrounding region. There was a lot of mayorialism (in constrast to nationalism, haah)

[Exarch]

I always wonder why Italian Wars did not lead to an unified northern Italy... Perhaps Italians really lacked any imagination...

i think there was consensus for a unified Italy; if you read MAchiavelli's 'The Prince' he does exhort 'someone' (i presume one of the Sforzas or the Borgias) to unify italy, so i do believe that some Elites and scholars wanted to unify italy into something like Rome That Was-kinda like 19th cenutry germans

yeh, OP read 'The Prince' it's a great read and shows some insight into the period of the italian wars

[hellheaven1987]

i think there was consensus for a unified Italy; if you read MAchiavelli's 'The Prince' he does exhort 'someone' (i presume one of the Sforzas or the Borgias) to unify italy, so i do believe that some Elites and scholars wanted to unify italy into something like Rome That Was-kinda like 19th cenutry germans

He probably did not imagine in the end it was Second French Empire supported the idea - in order to get an United States of Europe based on Paris as capital.

I am glad Prussians and rest of Germans kicked Frenchs' butt in Franco-Prussian War.

yeh, OP read 'The Prince' it's a great read and shows some insight into the period of the italian wars

Ya, The Prince did provide certain weakness of Italian states during 16th Century, but it is quite like Greek philosophy, not practical in most situations.

[Exarch]

He probably did not imagine in the end it was Second French Empire supported the idea - in order to get an United States of Europe based on Paris as capital.

oh the irony lol

I am glad Prussians and rest of Germans kicked Frenchs' butt in Franco-Prussian War.

of course, man
it's Germany, france got lucky with napoleon, but the Holy Roman Empire Lives!

Ya, The Prince did provide certain weakness of Italian states during 16th Century, but it is quite like Greek philosophy, not practical in most situations.

i think it's great for military/political psychology though; that bit where machiavelli talks about whether or not to build forts and its impact on the people

[Exarch]

delete

[DAVIDE]

I always wonder why Italian Wars did not lead to an unified northern Italy... Perhaps Italians really lacked any imagination...

The most important cause of political break up in Italia was of the fact that the peninsula was the headquarter of papacy and the ideal center of the empire. This prevented the creation of a poweful national state so strong to prevail the others, forbibbing the unification of the whole peninsula. Also the papacy whenever a foreigner emperor with peaceful or military intentions tended to unification was coming close to Italia, papacy was usual calling the aid/support of another state, enemy of the first one with the intentions of fighting it. And if this last state during the fight was going to have some military or terrestrial advantage, the papacy immediately was ready forging brandnew alliances with the one just kicked out. A non stop swing of alliances for keeping in the right balance the forces of the states close to the Papal state and not only those. This is how things worked here.

[Exarch]

so why didnt the pope(s) attempt to reunify the italian peninsula?
plenty of popes were warlike enough to get it done

[hellheaven1987]

so why didnt the pope(s) attempt to reunify the italian peninsula?
plenty of popes were warlike enough to get it done

Pope wants not unified Italy, but unified West Europe under his rule.

[Exarch]

Pope wants not unified Italy, but unified West Europe under his rule.

one step at a time lol
even the most novice players of M2:TW know to get northern italy first

[hellheaven1987]

one step at a time lol
even the most novice players of M2:TW know to get northern italy first

Apartly Pope Gregory VII did not agree with you.

[alhoon]

What? The Florentines becoming a nation with the milanese? The Pisans with the Genovese? Quelle Horreur!

I believe the Italians might have been following on from the tradition of the ancient greek city states, whereby the city is seen as the ideal political unit, and exerts influence over the surrounding region. There was a lot of mayorialism (in constrast to nationalism, haah)

They're still very city-centered from what I saw there. Also Genoa and Venice were republics why would they want a king?

[Basileos Leandros I]

I actually appreciate the hijacking of this thread so please carry on.

[Principe Alessandro]

i think there was consensus for a unified Italy; if you read MAchiavelli's 'The Prince' he does exhort 'someone' (i presume one of the Sforzas or the Borgias) to unify italy, so i do believe that some Elites and scholars wanted to unify italy into something like Rome That Was-kinda like 19th cenutry germans

yeh, OP read 'The Prince' it's a great read and shows some insight into the period of the italian wars

Yes but as you said only some elites. In the other hand people wasn't ready for a unification of the Italian peninsula because they were too different (Lombard, Sicilian, Venetian couldn't understand each other, their languages were too much different), in fact the Italian identity was artificially engineered by the Savoy dinasty, the Fascist regime and lately by the First Republic.

[Caesar Germanico]

so why didnt the pope(s) attempt to reunify the italian peninsula?
plenty of popes were warlike enough to get it done

hardly they had the power to do that the papacy was one city not a whole population,the borgias tried but they didnt even had solid political legitimacy
immagine italy without the pope, already with the longobards italy could had a base for a unified state
similar of what happened in france with the franks,even better

Yes but as you said only some elites. In the other hand people wasn't ready for a unification of the Italian peninsula because they were too different (Lombard, Sicilian, Venetian couldn't understand each other, their languages were too much different), in fact the Italian identity was artificially engineered by the Savoy dinasty, the Fascist regime and lately by the First Republic.

and that was because of all the people that arrived in italy,it was just a big mess
still there were some common grounds for the peoples of italy to unite,dante could speak with frederick 2's poets

maybe what happened in the 19th would have happened in 13th without the pope,the south conquesting the north this time,the empire was strong enough

[Principe Alessandro]

hardly they had the power to do that the papacy was one city not a whole population,the borgias tried but they didnt even had solid political legitimacy
immagine italy without the pope, already with the longobards italy could had a base for a unified state
similar of what happened in france with the franks,even better

You don't understand that in those times states were build upon the ownership of a particular dinasty. In fact a Italian Kingdom was already created by Charlemagne but embraced only Northern Italy where Carolingian successors ruled. The idea of "Nation" was almost non existent.

and that was because of all the people that arrived in italy,it was just a big mess
still there were some common grounds for the peoples of italy to unite,dante could speak with frederick 2's poets

maybe what happened in the 19th would have happened in 13th without the pope,the south conquesting the north this time,the empire was strong enough

Dante still is irrilevant because I'm talking about the common folk. And anyway there is no proof about this so called common ground. For example the languages of Northern Italy are more related with the languages of southern France than with the Sicilian or the Fiorentino, this means that the people felt they were related with the people of southern France?

Remember: "Fatta l'Italia, bisogna fare gli Italiani"

[Caesar Germanico]

the idea of nation did nt exist anywhere back then,the french kingdom was just the ile de france
the kingdom of italy created by charlemagne was the kingdom of the longobards (all of the longobards king claimed to be "rex totius Italiae"),the problem was that he gave land to the pope and without the royal house of the longobards there was no real dynasty and so the south was lost

Thus ended Lombard Italy, and nobody can say whether it was, for our country, a fortune or a misfortune. Alboin and his successors were awkward masters, more awkward than Theodoric, until they had been barbarians camped on a conquest territory. But now they were assimilating with Italy and could turn it into a Nation, as the Franks were doing in France.
But in France there wasn't the Pope. In Italy, there was.

—Indro Montanelli - Roberto Gervaso, L'Italia dei secoli bui

liutprand 's kingdom was nt the mess of early longobard italy,it was a true kingdom,longobards were becoming more latin than germans