About Franks.

[Diocletianus]

This is a little question for Joar and Julianus Héraclius : I have found a great book in my mother tongue about the Franks. Tombs, buldings, organisation, ethnics origins of the Franks, weapons and military tactics. I could search the topic of the Franks for you if needed. Do you still need intel about this tribe ?

[tomySVK]

Sound interesting

[julianus heraclius]

This is a little question for Joar and Julianus Héraclius : I have found a great book in my mother tongue about the Franks. Tombs, buldings, organisation, ethnics origins of the Franks, weapons and military tactics. I could search the topic of the Franks for you if needed. Do you still need intel about this tribe ?

Any information on the Franks, especially of the 3rd century would be invaluable.

[Diocle]

Very interesting Diocletianus, may I remind you dear friends that I opened an old thread in which I wanted to speak about the Gremanic tribes during the III century?

It might be a good location to talk about the Franks......

Here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...they-look-like

Anyway I'm waiting for your text Diocletianus.

[Edelfred]

Franks ,while Germanics had through royal mariages got their royalty from Iranics-Cimmerians or Cimbri - Sicambri that is the name of nation the kings of Franks of expansion period are originated .
Their Sicambri kings of Franks .
First evidence their kings by Indo-Iranic tradition , non Germanic, could not cut their hairs .
Second they remebered events related to the fall Cimbri-Germanic for Cimmeria .
Third is use of perfect cavalry-Frankish paladins - only Iranics originated could ride,in the way it counted, amongst Germanics ,Slavs,Balts ,Celts .
Fourth the name Cambri -Germanized version of Cimri-Humber .
Fifth almost any serious winner in historic race in Europe had Iranic Kings .
Scots ,Vikings ,Welsh ,Poles etc
Scots wrote in their first book Sons of Mil Espaine - our first king is from Scythia.
Upsala dynasty from which Danes,Swedes,Norwegians originated had their pre-viking kings as riders of Vendel era (from where Tolkien has loaned inspiration of
Rohan riders) . Its known since riders of Swedish king's court of that era used tech unknown to Western Europe and known only in Scythia.
Now there are attempts to explain Welsh name Cimbri not from Cimbri but from cumbroge : com-patriots. Even if shortened it would still contain main consonants.
So cymru can never be from cmbrg . Plus aside from Celtic names for Cimmerians like Cymru and Cumbria there Anglo-Saxon Germanic names etym origianted from Cimbri f.e. the stream Humber
Polish nobles were Sarmatian too,according to their tradition, and ther riding skill certainly says for it.

Why those Iranics were so important to ancient Europeans . They originate from Andronovo culture ,which had the most advanced metalurgy 4000 years before .
Not to mention chariots ,horse riding skills etc (their neighbours had neither horses neither chariots ,but onager cards at their best) Their westernmost part Cimmerian nobles triggered cultural revolution in Central Europe ,ended up with the rise of Celtic culture as metal working ...

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

Sigh . . .

[Knonfoda]

Franks ,while Germanics had through royal mariages got their royalty from Iranics-Cimmerians or Cimbri - Sicambri that is the name of nation the kings of Franks of expansion period are originated .
Their Sicambri kings of Franks .
First evidence their kings by Indo-Iranic tradition , non Germanic, could not cut their hairs .
Second they remebered events related to the fall Cimbri-Germanic for Cimmeria .
Third is use of perfect cavalry-Frankish paladins - only Iranics originated could ride,in the way it counted, amongst Germanics ,Slavs,Balts ,Celts .
Fourth the name Cambri -Germanized version of Cimri-Humber .
Fifth almost any serious winner in historic race in Europe had Iranic Kings .
Scots ,Vikings ,Welsh ,Poles etc
Scots wrote in their first book Sons of Mil Espaine - our first king is from Scythia.
Upsala dynasty from which Danes,Swedes,Norwegians originated had their pre-viking kings as riders of Vendel era (from where Tolkien has loaned inspiration of
Rohan riders) . Its known since riders of Swedish king's court of that era used tech unknown to Western Europe and known only in Scythia.
Now there are attempts to explain Welsh name Cimbri not from Cimbri but from cumbroge : com-patriots. Even if shortened it would still contain main consonants.
So cymru can never be from cmbrg . Plus aside from Celtic names for Cimmerians like Cymru and Cumbria there Anglo-Saxon Germanic names etym origianted from Cimbri f.e. the stream Humber
Polish nobles were Sarmatian too,according to their tradition, and ther riding skill certainly says for it.

Why those Iranics were so important to ancient Europeans . They originate from Andronovo culture ,which had the most advanced metalurgy 4000 years before .
Not to mention chariots ,horse riding skills etc (their neighbours had neither horses neither chariots ,but onager cards at their best) Their westernmost part Cimmerian nobles triggered cultural revolution in Central Europe ,ended up with the rise of Celtic culture as metal working ...

You're not making any sense, and on a number of levels.

First, while I appreciate English may not be your first language, if your communication is to match your enthusiasm on this subject, then you're going to have to try harder and make more of an effort to be understandable. Because as it stands, you're not. You're spouting what barely qualify as statements without any overaching logic or theme whatsoever to them, other than "Iranians this" or "Iranians that" and even then barely so, wildly jumping from one topic to the next without any exposition whatsoever.

Second, before you even attempt to make such bold and sweeping statements, we're going to have to see some evidence. What sources do you have for any of this? What works of literature, academia, archaeological finds, or any other form of supporting material have you got to basically link "Scots, Vikings, Welsh, Poles, Franks, Germanics, Cimmerians, Cimbri, Sicambri, Danes, Swedes, Norwegians, Vikings, Slavs, Balts and Celts" back to Iranians?

Third, your reply in no way shape or form actually contributes to the discussion we're having on "Franks" and the question asked by the OP. This is not the place for pseudo-archeogenetics, and definitely not the place for ethnocentrism.

Fourth, if anything, I find your arguments are based solely on hyperbole, deeply flawed historical analysis, and even more on questionable personal assumptions, an example of which is "use of perfect cavalry - only Iranics originated could ride". Is this seriously what you're basing your thesis on? Need I say more?

Lastly, and perhaps more importantly, the actual origin of these peoples are in fact of very little importance to the overall historical basis of this mod. By this time, these cultures were already so many worlds apart and so distinct in their own ways of life that any possible "common ancestor" would have meant very little, and especially more so in practical terms. It's like saying right now, today: "Oh, we all share the same common ancestor you know!" to which I reply "And?" We're still different enough to speak different languages, eat different food, live by different values, customs and religions, and different enough to kill each other. That's all that matters.

In sum, this kind of discussion is really not needed, nor is it welcome, given the tone and format (or lack thereof).

[Diocletianus]

I have found interresting pictures my lords ! Sadly, my understanding of attachments is lacking and the images are smaller than I espected to be but here they are though !The first and second image are finds of a frankish burial chamber with loads of roman artefacts like dishes and weapons. It clearly shows that the Franks extensively used roman weaponnery against them. I would like to draw your attention to the weapons beside the man in the upper picture. Could it be a proto-angon or small plumbatae darts ? The third image are finds of germanic weapons of the 3rd and 4th century like scramasax,spathat, spear heads and shield umbo. It could be usefull for modellers and unit textures. The fourth image show the repartition of the frankish pottery from the third to early fourth century. They are linked by specific element that can show a distinct ''frankish nation'' among the germanic tribes. I would like to remember too that the Franks were not a unified cultural entity but mor a league against other tribes and the Romans. The same fact can be applied to the Alamans. The last image show the study by W. De Bonne about the hoards in northen Gaul. The small text explain that the hoards are a symptom of insecurity and chaos in the region (like britain in the 400s). The dates on the coins buried can link us to guess when they were buried. During the reign of Valerien and Galien (253-268), many hoards are in the limitrophic régions of the rhine, especially in Belgium where it was under pressure from the Franks. Alsace was also raided by germanic tribes during that period according to W.De Bonne. However, the finds stop in Belgium during the late 260s to 275. The ''main front'' is now against the Alamans in Alsace. The last image is a map of the different tribes who were part of the frankish league. The triangles indicates the tribe Inside the frankish league. Other germanic peoples have a star besides their names. That's all I have found for now.

[demagogos nicator]

Very interesting. From the germanic tribes of the era Franks are among those I am most interested in they are usualy my favourite faction in late antiquity mods.

[tomySVK]

Interesting reading, thank you Diocletianus

[Joar]

Yes, good posting, Diocletianus.

[Diocle]

@Diocletianus: Is it possible to have a list of the tribes forming the first aggregation of Franks?

These are the names I know:

In the North between the Weser and the Rhine: Salii, Camavi, Bructerii; then, between the Lippe and the Lahn: Tencterii, Ampsivarii, Catti, Attuarii, Tubanti, Usipeti. But here I have to stop, and the others?

[Diocle]

FVR I'm really interested in the way in which the early Germanic confederations will be represented in Restitutor Orbis.

IMHO it's one of the most important aspect of the whole Modification, because the military situation on the Rhine and Danube Limites is absolutely an important factor for the developments of the so called 'Military Anarchy of the III century' (not the unic factor of the crisis, of course, anyway one of the most important if you look at the military contest from which the Illyrian emperors came from!), the exit of the Marcomannic wars of Marcus Aurelius and the subsequent Germanic changes in their political and military organization is IMHO one of the most important facts in European History.

So, am I too brutal, if I humbly ask some respect for the Mod, the work of the team and our common historical interests in this discussion?


P.S.: Nice pic!

[Erebus Pasha]

I've had to cull quite a few posts as it seems as if the thread has gone off the rails a little. Can we please get back on to the topic of the thread which is I believe about the Franks during the timeframe of this mod.

[Edelfred]

OP has asked about Franks ethnicity . Sigambri ,from whom Merovings originated ,according to their traditon were from Scythia .
I think it is true because uncommon to the rest of Germanics they had a serious heavy cavalry - Frankish paladins .
Merovings also had a tradition uncommon to the rest of known Europeans , but existing amongst Indo-Iranics-cutting off their hair disgraced them.
As it noted by Gregory of Tours .
This is why the founder of Merovings dynasty had been called Clodio Long-Haired . Clovis has cut hairs those competing Frankish kings he wanted to dispose .
The hairs of Merovings kings were so important to them even the Frankish coins were designed to reflect their longitude and fairness . Franks haven't cultivated good old germanic beards ,but weared long mustashes in the way of steppe warriors.
/ instead of beards they have thin moustaches which they run through with a comb/

[Knonfoda]

*Apparently someone didn't like my limericks*. If I can't even call a spade a spade, I'll be damned if I can't even acknowledge that.

Now then, to the point. The OP has quite sensibly said he has found a book about the relevant information on Frankish history. Why don't you take something from his page and also contribute some form of evidence towards your argument? Logic and reasoning alone does not constitute evidence, no matter what they tell you at philosopher school.

Either do that or we'll all ignore you, since you're apparently unable to handle brevity. Which is ironic, for someone accusing others of being cowards and hiding behind the "internet".

[Joar]

OK people, here's how it's going to be:

This thread was created to assist the modders of IBRO with some background info about the Franks. And although the origin of the Franks is an interesting topic that everyone is most welcome to debate and discuss, this is not the place to do it. This thread have a very specific topic ( the Franks of the 3rd century AD ), so let's not derail it by discussing anything else but that.

If Edelfred wants to open up a new thread of his own to elaborate on his theories about the early origins of the Franks, he is most welcome to do so.

[Diocletianus]

I am back people ! My stay in Europe was longer than planned, ergo the lack of replies. I have reread the book meanwhile and I didn't found any other new informations ... However, in the next month I will acces to my university library for the whole fall so I will search for any new or interrestings evidences about our friends,the Franks.