v3.0 Patch Discussion (Campaign)

[CapnDan]

Similar to the other topic for general issues with v3.0 (which can be found here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-%28General%29), this thread is intended for discussions regarding potential work that can be done for the campaign.

Properly/fully testing the campaign basically requires a complete (and long/slow) playthrough with each faction. This is more work than the devs or even the beta-test team could really take on so I've made a list below of all the available factions and wanted to see if anybody in general would be keen to take on doing a thorough playthrough of a particular faction, taking notes along the way, and then posting any results. This would probably be useful for identifying potential bugs or any areas that could still use work. The list is below and I'll periodically update it with notes as/if they are posted.

Main playthrough 'to do' items:
-do a full playthrough for the faction conquering all/most of the map (so go beyond the simple victory requirements)
-take notes during playthrough and then post a summary of bugs/suggestions once complete
-Try to mostly fight battles (avoid autoresolve where possible)
-anything else? Can anybody think of important additional things to do?

Faction list (which will be updated with notes as/if they come in):
Gondor
Rohan
Dwarves
Noldor Elves
Galadhrim Elves
Silvan Elves
Isengard
Mordor
Orc Rabbles
Easterlings
Southrons
Dunlendings
Dale
Free Peoples


General Campaign Notes so far ('?' marks indicate items I'm still not sure about):
-Scripted Reinforcements for Minas_Tirith and Helms_Deep are generated not on the regular part of the strat map and therefore cannot be attacked or engage in battles as reinforcements, even if they are on an otherwise connected hex. (Fixed in 3.2 patch)

-Campaign balance should be more in line with lore?-Maybe just boost Isengard and Mordor slightly when playing as the 'good' factions? (Fixed in 3.2 patch)

-Remove HD and MT reinforcement scripts when playing as good factions?

-Remove gold armour upgrades for Gondor? (unless capture dwarf/elf cities with existing top-level forges?)

-decrease morale slightly?
-->nope, high morale needed for campaign balance and ai factions developing experienced units

-Farms +3 text description for mordor (maybe all evil factions?) is the "warning text should not appear on screen" text

-Troops and generals in campaign map with vanilla voices

-Add text notes for new player to warn of incoming Mordor and Isengard scripted armies?

<<<<<<<<<<Southrons>>>>>>>>>
-Mumakil autoresolve massive imbalanc

<<<<<<<<<<DWARVES>>>>>>>>>
-Merc Dwarf miners no merc recruitment unit (#unit) card
-dwarf emmissary _info pic missing

-Dwarf buildings problems
-cannot grow settlements (riots ensue) (Fixed in 3.2 patch)

-Dwarf standard settlement AI (in battle maps) kind of wonky because of the mountain paths - maybe close those off? Make them simple straight ramps? Also remarked that the game pauses (nearly crash) while a defending AI army deploys it's troops prior to a battle on dwarf settlement maps.

-Dwarves have the occupy, enslave, exterminate option available in some regions (those with dwarf resource I think) - elves also sometimes have the option. --> Maybe on purpose?

-Goblins in campaign against dwarves will frequently initiate attacks, then form up in tactical only to immediately withdraw (ie. dwarf army, even with cavalry would have no chance to catch them)

<<<<<<<<<<GONDOR>>>>>>>>>
-Gondor .info image missing for hobbit militia (probably all factions other than free peoples)

<<<<<<<<<<MORDOR>>>>>>>>>
-some orc generals look like Nazgul on strat map and on battle map

-(CapnDan 3.0)updated slave buildings text descriptions, they could still be improved to better outline the benefits of these buildings though

[Bardo]

I'm testing a couple of adjustments that should make the campaign much more challenging:

1. I have doubled the costs of all buildings for the human players (AI cheats to keep old costs).
I think the main reason that economy was so easy in this latest version is that building costs were too cheap compared to overall income.
With these increased costs, you can not just build every building in every city, players are forced to reduce the recruitment and save money in order to get the highest buildings.
Unit upkeep costs for Gondor were also increased a bit. Gondor economy is still the most powerfull, but not so easy to handle now.

2. I have increased the money bonuses given to the AI, and re-enabled the reinforcements given to Mordor and Isengard.
Now the AI is more agressive (because they will have more money than the player), and the bad factions tend to overule the map, like they did in previous versions, if you do not stop them soon.

[Bardo]

-Scripted Reinforcements for Minas_Tirith and Helms_Deep are generated not on the regular part of the strat map and therefore cannot be attacked or engage in battles as reinforcements, even if they are on an otherwise connected hex.

Script generated armies can not participate in a battle in the same turn that they are created, no matter where we place them. They must be moved before they are taking into account as reinforcements.
The exception is when they are created in the same tile than the attacking army, then there are chances that the scripted army is automatically moved, and you can see it as reinforcement in battle, but there are also chances that you can not select your own army nor to start the siege battle...

For next patch I'll place the rohirrim scripted reinforcements in passable terrain as requested (North-East of Helm's Deep, and North-East of Minas Tirith too), so there is a chance that you see them in battle if you attack from the same tile.

-Campaign balance should be more in line with lore?-Maybe just boost Isengard and Mordor slightly when playing as the 'good' factions? -add scripts for AI cash bonuses?-Boost Isengard by giving more better buildings and units from the start?

Done for next patch: economy boost for every AI faction, specially mordor and isengard. The scripted reinforcements for Mordor and Isengard appear when you play with any good faction.

-Remove HD and MT reinforcement scripts when playing as good factions?

I think it is rare to see those cities sieged when the player is the owner. It only happens when you are losing terrain against the AI, and I think the script would be helpful in that case.

-Remove gold armour upgrades for Gondor? (unless capture dwarf/elf cities with existing top-level forges?)

I do not like Gondor being encouraged to capture elven/dwarven cities.
Now that buildings are more expensive, I hope it is not so easy to get gold armours for Gondor.

-decrease morale slightly?

I have seen whole armies routing in multiplayer games when they could have won the battle. It sometimes happens when you concentrate the attack of units that cause fear like cavalry, chariots, troll or uruks, specially when fighting against orcs, goblins, rhun, harad or dale. If you can do it to experienced online players, imagine to the AI...
Current morale values are designed for battles without commanders nor morale bonuses, because that is the case in most of the battles against the AI. I know it makes morale a bit unrealistic in same cases, for example when goblins are defending a plaza and they fight to the last man, but I prefer it than seing entire AI armies routing without even fighting.
It is still possible to cause a wave of panic in the enemy army if done properly with the right units attacking the weakest point, even against experienced troops, I do not want to make it easier by decreasing the morale.

-Do orc and goblin archers have (slightly) too strong a ranged attack?

Maybe, but there is a small margin between archers being strong or useless. I think they are not too strong for custom/multiplayer battles, where it is hard to protect them from enemy charges, and they only shot 2 or 3 times until the armies engage.
It is campaign where I find all ranged units very powerful, but mainly because the IA does not counter them properly and let them shot until they run out of ammo.

-Mordor actually needs 79 (not 75 as stated in text file) territories to win

I do not why, they are set to 75 in the victory condition file.

[CapnDan]

Hey Bardo,

I've been messing around with a small pack of changes for a patch/addon myself and I think it's more or less finised. It looks like I actually managed to get done many of the same things your did but sometimes just went a slightly different route.

In the case of Mordor for example, I just decreased unit costs slightly (very slightly, like -10 for a few units) and added a little bit to the scripted money and changed Southrons "do not attack" script from Easterlings (which they don't seem to attack anyway) to Mordor. This resulted in Mordor regularly being able to conquer Minas Tirith when playing against the AI by about turn 30, but then being beaten back to Osgiliath or so by the Gondor AI. I thought this seemed about right but adding in another scripted reinforcement would pretty much be all Mordor would need to crush Gondor before turn 50 at this point. Oh, also I added a bonus scripted army for Mordor if Gondor is a human player, this bonus army tends to lead to an almost guaranteed attack on MT.

I also added scripted reinforcements for Isengard so they do much better against (but don't totally annihilate) Rohan.

Script generated armies can not participate in a battle in the same turn that they are created, no matter where we place them. They must be moved before they are taking into account as reinforcements.
The exception is when they are created in the same tile than the attacking army, then there are chances that the scripted army is automatically moved, and you can see it as reinforcement in battle, but there are also chances that you can not select your own army nor to start the siege battle...

I think it is rare to see those cities sieged when the player is the owner. It only happens when you are losing terrain against the AI, and I think the script would be helpful in that case.

I had just removed the scripted reinforcements at MT completely and changed the HD reinforcements to being only the army of elves. I found this worked well as the new scripted armies for Mordor and Isengard tend to encourage attacks on those two cities and the player actually having a change to experience Seth's awesome new maps in campaign.

Also the big scripted reinforcement armies tended to cause trouble in single-player campaigns as they would occur every time you re-loaded a game leading to super-strong Rohan if you're like me and can generally only play a couple of turns at a time.

I do not like Gondor being encouraged to capture elven/dwarven cities.
Now that buildings are more expensive, I hope it is not so easy to get gold armours for Gondor.

I kind of like it, gives people more options to really create their own Third Age story. Some of my favourite games were the ones I spend testing good faction vs. good faction

I have seen whole armies routing in multiplayer games when they could have won the battle. It sometimes happens when you concentrate the attack of units that cause fear like cavalry, chariots, troll or uruks, specially when fighting against orcs, goblins, rhun, harad or dale. If you can do it to experienced online players, imagine to the AI...
Current morale values are designed for battles without commanders nor morale bonuses, because that is the case in most of the battles against the AI. I know it makes morale a bit unrealistic in same cases, for example when goblins are defending a plaza and they fight to the last man, but I prefer it than seing entire AI armies routing without even fighting.
It is still possible to cause a wave of panic in the enemy army if done properly with the right units attacking the weakest point, even against experienced troops, I do not want to make it easier by decreasing the morale.

Maybe, but there is a small margin between archers being strong or useless. I think they are not too strong for custom/multiplayer battles, where it is hard to protect them from enemy charges, and they only shot 2 or 3 times until the armies engage.
It is campaign where I find all ranged units very powerful, but mainly because the IA does not counter them properly and let them shot until they run out of ammo.

I agree completely and think it's pretty much fine as it.

I do not why, they are set to 75 in the victory condition file.

Yea I saw that one too, not sure why..

[CapnDan]

Here's the link for the 3.0 addon I had put together. It should be complete but I've not yet tested it on a fresh install.
http://www.gamefront.com/files/23548...+3.0+Addon.zip

Also updated OP with additional notes.
I'd be happy to volunteer any of this for including in the Bardo patch if it's usable.

Here's the Readme/Changelog:
Install instructions:
Extract lotrtw folder over the existing install and select the option to replace existing files.

Then run the mod as normal, that should be all it takes.

WARNING: This addon changes descr_strat and descr_regions so it is likely not savegame compatible.

Change Log as follows:

<<<<<<<<<<GENERAL>>>>>>>>>
-# of arrows for archer units more standardized
-Orcs and peasants @~15
-militia archers @20
-professional (dedicated) archers @25
-elite (not dedicated) archers @20

-3rd level of ports can now be built at regular cities (as opposed to large cities) so that all factions can actually build all their port-based units

<<<<<<<<<<DWARVES>>>>>>>>>
-Added men+horses resource to Erebor (so hirelings can be recruited without needing to conquer Dale first)

-Boosted armour for Juggernauts +1 and shield +1 (plays more like unit description now)

-Minor changes to which buildings build what dwarf units
-Juggernauts and Dragonslayers to Forge of Auwle, Enforcers to Large Barracks
-Warsmiths to 2nd level forges regardless of drarf resource presence
-added hireling Spearmen to first level forge, archers and cavalry to 2nd level

-added dwarf resource to durth and morgul

<<<<<<<<<<ELVES>>>>>>>>>
-re-sorted unit recruitment so only very basics can be recruited in non elf settlements
-require trading post to build 2nd forge
-elven city-level market structures can now recruit a mid-level unit type (to police/protect the trade routes)

-Changed standard Noldor bodyguard from kingsguard to upgraded Imladhirim Sentinels
-Kingsguard made recruitable general unit after return of noldor

-Increased Noldor unit maintenance costs slightly makes for a more conservative noldor AI

-Made Greenwood Sentinels buildable for Slivian (at highest level barracks)

-Noldor Swordguards text description updated

<<<<<<<<<<ROHAN>>>>>>>>>
-Eored scouts - updated text descr from 'javelins' to 'light mounted archers'
-Removed reinforcements script at Minas Tirith and modified reinforcements for Helm's Deep

<<<<<<<<<<ISENGARD>>>>>>>>>
-Uruk Pikemen a bit OP in campaign, reduced to Attack = 5, shield = 4, removed warcry ability and reduced multiplayer cost
-Isengard scouts + crossbows range increased to be slightly more in line with militia of other factions

<<<<<<<<<<GONDOR>>>>>>>>>
-Dol Amroth archers +1 to missile attack
-Denethor campaign unit changed to modified tower guard (infantry)
-Guards of the steward (cavalry unit) made a seperate unit+general (Beregond)
-gondor needs to capture elven or dwarven top level forges to access gold armour upgrades

<<<<<<<<<<MORDOR>>>>>>>>>
-Black Guards no longer always 'launching' on attack
-reduced unit upkeep costs slightly (makes AI more agressive)
-made more units buildable at more building levels

-updated slave buildings text descriptions, they could still be improved to better outline the benefits of these buildings though

<<<<<<<<<<EASTERLINGS>>>>>>>>>
-Warbows unit pic updated so it looks less similar to the warrior unit pic

<<<<<<<<<SOUTHRONS>>>>>>>>>
-added +1 to umbar axemen attack
-Some Umbar units now buildable at Southron ports, even outside of Umbar region
-Umbar archers build time reduced to 2 turns
-Edited strategic AI so Southrons less likely to attack Mordor (unless provoked)

[Bardo]

I'm liking some of your changes. Mainly these ones:

<<<<<<<<<<ELVES>>>>>>>>>
-Changed standard Noldor bodyguard from kingsguard to upgraded Imladhirim Sentinels
-Kingsguard made recruitable general unit after return of noldor
-Made Greenwood Sentinels buildable for Slivian (at highest level barracks)
-Noldor Swordguards text description updated

<<<<<<<<<<ROHAN>>>>>>>>>
-Eored scouts - updated text descr from 'javelins' to 'light mounted archers'

<<<<<<<<<<ISENGARD>>>>>>>>>
-Uruk Pikemen a bit OP in campaign
-Isengard scouts + crossbows range increased to be slightly more in line with militia of other factions

-updated slave buildings text descriptions, they could still be improved to better outline the benefits of these buildings though

Your variant for dwarven recruitment looks good, but I'd need to test it first.
About elves, I'm considering to disallow the recruitment outside elven regions again, as designed by wlesmana, but I'll take a look to your variant first.
Very useful list of changes, thanks CapnDan.

One question, which units were not possible to recruit before this change?

-3rd level of ports can now be built at regular cities (as opposed to large cities) so that all factions can actually build all their port-based units

Btw, I can't download your link, it appears the right page at gamefront, but it says file not found when I click download.

[CapnDan]

One question, which units were not possible to recruit before this change?

Most factions have two types of naval units, the second of which needs the higher level port building to recruit. The higher level port buildings however all previously required large cities (which are restricted in 3.0) so most factions would end up never having the chance to build the 2nd level of naval units.

Btw, I can't download your link, it appears the right page at gamefront, but it says file not found when I click download.

I just tried it again and it seems to work, also it look like at least a few other people have managed to download. Does gamefront have any issues in your region? Have another preferred upload service?

[CapnDan]

CapnDan 3.0 Addon.zip

Looks like I can just attach the file here (link above) with the new forum server.
Does this work better?

[Bardo]

I downloaded this new link, thank you.
Gamefront still not working for me, it says file not found, but I think they increase the counter of downloads everytime I click... Maybe the same was happening to other people too.

I'll be testing your changes this week.

[Bardo]

-->add script to destroy walls if a dwarf settlement upgrade building is completed? (model on POPULATION script:?)
-monitor_event core_building completed egypt
destroy walls?

Not possible. Scripts can only damage not destroy buildings, and walls appear in battlemap even if damaged.

I'm testing to link the presence of walls to the creator of the core building, and it seems to work, but I'm not sure if it will case other problems. If it works, we can allow dwarves to grow their cities again, and maybe to fix the bugs caused by elven walls.

[Leeroy9000]

Have not played this Add-on yet, may try it now, since I probably already got enough testing of 3.01 campaign. But at a glance the changes seem good. Especially I like the idea of restricting evles' AOR, if it has not already been done in 3.01 (it only says they can't be recruited in Mordor). Btw, would it overwrite the 3.01 crash fixes and increased cost of buildings?

[CapnDan]

Btw, would it overwrite the 3.01 crash fixes and increased cost of buildings?

Mostly yes, this addon and the patch use many of the same files, even if it doesn't overwrite I'd be afraid that using both the 3.0x patches and my addon could introduce bugs and instability. I would probably stick with 3.01 and then later 3.02 for now. I will probably put together another version of the addon that is compatible with 3.02 once the patch is complete and released.

[Master of the Strategists]

Every time I try to open the campaign with a new approach, one that may actually work (none of my previous approaches worked), the game crashes before I even have a chance to do anything. I recently installed the latest patch and that didn't help at all to stop the game from denying me access to campaign. May I have some help please? I have ideas of how to play the Easterling campaign that may actually work, unlike my pre-crash approaches.

[CapnDan]

Every time I try to open the campaign with a new approach, one that may actually work (none of my previous approaches worked), the game crashes before I even have a chance to do anything. I recently installed the latest patch and that didn't help at all to stop the game from denying me access to campaign. May I have some help please? I have ideas of how to play the Easterling campaign that may actually work, unlike my pre-crash approaches.

-Had you been using any additional patches or addons beyond the main ones? If so, those might be the source of your problem as some (my addon included) have parts that are likely incompatible with 3.02.

-If you're not worried about losing savegames or anything maybe try deleting the entire C:\...\Rome - Total War\alexander\lotrtw folder and reinstalling the mod from scratch to be sure that you have only the official releases running.

Hope that helps.