Euthanasia for the Mentally Retarded?

[Cor De Ferrum]

Hate speech removed.

[Randompigeon]

The idea of Euthanasia would be a interesting idea to discuss but the way you have prefaced the idea will lead to a very diverse, some of it flaming the fact bone of contention is

Because they live such unaccomplished lives

under whose judgment is it that you have observed and valued their lives, for some this could be true but others it is not, arguably many of our lives are 'unaccomplished' in comparison to others. To say their life is devalued is wrong, but they are merely different, differently flawed, differently unique.

will live a life of reticule and abuse

1) most of us endure this in some form and 2) abuse for merely being different whether down syndrome or something else is wrong, and if applied to race is racist.
And most people I'm sure accept them for human beings, because they are. Indeed they could be considered a burden but as a mother or a father perhaps they would endure the burden because it is their son or daughter.

Perhaps a better idea to discuss is that would it be wrong to abort a fetus because it is mentally disabled?

[LWT]

Euthanasia is by definition voluntary. One cannot euthanize someone without his initiative. That's just murder.

[Kissaki]

What about retired people? They've ceased to be productive, so this would be an excellent retirement plan, no?

[removeduser_4536284751384]

If you asked say, Bill Gates whether he thought he'd have a fulfilling life as a b list celebrity or lawyer or cleaner he might say life wouldn't be worth living as one of those things. Perhaps Katy Perry thinks being a mathemitician would be worse than death. Does that mean we should euthenize those people? No?

Then why should we euthenize one group of people just because you subjectively think they can't live fulfilled lives? They'd beg to differ. Unaccomplished lives? Living through constant suffering? That applies to pretty much everyone.

What if think life as a Jewish follower of half of what the Nazis did couldn't be fulfilling? Should you be euthanized?

[RubiconDecision]

This kind of talk is reminiscent of Eugenics, a morally repugnant process and it takes away the rights of an individual and allows for the State to make a decision over their life and ability to reproduce. It was commonly done by Progressives in the USA in the 1920-1950s and in Nazi Germany through sterillization and often without the patient's knowledge. People who were caught masterbating were sometimes sterillized as it was considered a sign of mental weakness. Sometimes unwed mothers who had been raped were sterilized through no fault of their own. Often the mentally challenged were automatically sterillized to "protect them and to prevent more undesireables from being born. How could this possibly not be a ToS violation? It is complete Facist, and worse because what you're suggesting is extermination, not euthanasia, for euthanasia is a process of making an informed decision and usually in regards to a life of intractible pain and suffering from maladies like cancer.

One of the most disgusting ideas I have ever read on this forum. I cannot possibly see how such a thing would be legal. There's lots of reasons it breaks not only ToS but good form within a community. But then, the OP is well known for making these kinds of statements....
ToS #13 Promoting Illegal Activities
ToS #8 Using race, religion, sexual orientation, culture, ethnicity, handicap, nationality, or gender as a means of insult, either directly or implied.
I'd saying killing the handicapped is as directly insulting as you can get as it's death.

[Dr Zoidberg]

Euthanise the mentally-retarded? Are we trying to halve TWC's membership?

[Arbitrary Crusader]

And miss out having fun debates? **** that ****.

[Pīrūz Nahavandi]

I guess that you would feel sympathy for the Nazi's views that their vision of a better society was a society without the Jews?

On the small chance that this isn't a troll thread, the decision to terminate the life of a mentally disabled person should be purely a matter for family and friends. Who else could seriously make the judgment that x person must die because we regard them as useless?

If we talk about terminating people for being a strain on resources, then why not extend this mindset to the retired, the unemployed, the chronically sick and the severely injured?

[squirel]

Retroactive abortion? Friends? ?????

[Denny Crane!]

This kind of talk is reminiscent of Eugenics, a morally repugnant process and it takes away the rights of an individual and allows for the State to make a decision over their life and ability to reproduce. It was commonly done by Progressives in the USA in the 1920-1950s and in Nazi Germany through sterillization and often without the patient's knowledge. People who were caught masterbating were sometimes sterillized as it was considered a sign of mental weakness. Sometimes unwed mothers who had been raped were sterilized through no fault of their own. Often the mentally challenged were automatically sterillized to "protect them and to prevent more undesireables from being born. How could this possibly not be a ToS violation? It is complete Facist, and worse because what you're suggesting is extermination, not euthanasia, for euthanasia is a process of making an informed decision and usually in regards to a life of intractible pain and suffering from maladies like cancer.

One of the most disgusting ideas I have ever read on this forum. I cannot possibly see how such a thing would be legal. There's lots of reasons it breaks not only ToS but good form within a community. But then, the OP is well known for making these kinds of statements....
ToS #13 Promoting Illegal Activities
ToS #8 Using race, religion, sexual orientation, culture, ethnicity, handicap, nationality, or gender as a means of insult, either directly or implied.
I'd saying killing the handicapped is as directly insulting as you can get as it's death.

I'd stop bleating on about the ToS since you clearly don't get it.

A lot of people on TWC have often advocated (from the top and bottom) that anything can be discussed so long as it isn't raised purely to cause a fracas within the forum. Now given there have been a lot of advocates of eugenics throughout history as you point out and to this day there are people still advocating it then it is a worthy topic for discussion. If you just simply ban every topic that bruises your massively sensitive nature then nothing extreme ever gets discussed and the forum as a whole loses out.

Thats why we've had people on here with extreme opinions and I dare say that occasionally they can be brought around to a more reasonable point of view.

Euthanise the mentally-retarded? Are we trying to halve TWC's membership?

lol.


Since there is no one here, and can be no adequate defence of the state executing people on a whim allow me to divert the topic in a very small way to real eugenics issues that we do face today.

Has anyone heard of the woman, who has quite high level funding, who travels around America offering drug addicts a large cash payment to be sterilised? She is coming to a UK near you soon with plans to hit Africa next. Long term drug addicts having children is a nightmare socially, the very best outcome is taking the child into care, and the long term outcome on the child is still not likely to be favourable. This is voluntary, the drug addict is given the reasons why its being offered.

Right or wrong?

.............................................


A further question I would pose is this. If two mentally retarded people who are incapable of looking after themselves is something we allow?

Why should we have a right to say yay or nay? Well simply because we already support them via the state and any child they have is definitely going to require very expensive daily care but in all likelihood be taken into care. Genetic inheritability and variance in the population remains at 2% so that is not an issue.

If we agree there are only negative outcomes at stake then what options remain? The with holding of state benefits or the imposition of forced sterilisation or the application of pressure to their carers.

[RubiconDecision]

I'd stop bleating on about the ToS since you clearly don't get it.

A lot of people on TWC have often advocated (from the top and bottom) that anything can be discussed so long as it isn't raised purely to cause a fracas within the forum. Now given there have been a lot of advocates of eugenics throughout history as you point out and to this day there are people still advocating it then it is a worthy topic for discussion. If you just simply ban every topic that bruises your massively sensitive nature then nothing extreme ever gets discussed and the forum as a whole loses out.

Thats why we've had people on here with extreme opinions and I dare say that occasionally they can be brought around to a more reasonable point of view.

Is free speech so sacrosanct that the discussion of such noxious topics as Eugenics by is more important that protecting the TWCenter? I think on that topic we are at polar opposites. As a minority, I find I am completely repelled by the allowance of the mollycoddling of these members. It is not only annoying, it is digusting.

Why is it allowed? It is claimed that it is not to restrict free speech, but in reality my observation is that some debaters enjoy thrashing them in kind, as if that battle truly matters. Meanwhile by the allowance of such spectacles, you make the TWCenter a terrible place for any minority to visit. I say minority, but there are more of us in the world who are non-white, and yet desite that, most of the sterotypes perpetuated are by whites as a means of establishing their superiority and power.

How often would you find an Asian poster like myself creating topics on the superiority of Asians versus White Europeans? I bet almost never. Why? It's anti-intellectual. It's bad for community. It serves no purpose. It is not debateable as there is no evidence. It is cruel. It is asinine.

The TWCenter is an extraordinary place where modders and players can come together towards the purpose of understanding history. Many of the mods requires hundred if not thousands of hours of work, and in that unselfish process, not only was something beautiful and creative generated, but something superior to the intial game.

Those who troll and propose this racist nonsense are destroyers. You extinguish fire, you do not allow it to burn the house down and then articulate statements to the fire that it shouldn't burn the infrastructure.

You claim I am massively sensitive. That is a frequent way of dismissing racism and most often done by those in power. "RubiconDecision, you're too sensitive. Why do you care if someone wants to execute mentally challenged people? Why do words matter?"

They matter, Mr. Crane because to allow a member to speak of such illegal acts, by your protection you are not much different than the silent majority who allowed the Holocaust to happen.

[Cor De Ferrum]

Alright, well after reading most of this, I've read some very interesting points and some input that simply wasn't needed.

The comparison between retired peoples

The fact that a mentally retarded person does not have the ability to give consent to nor demand Euthanasia

Side note to RubiconDecision, when it comes to ToS, don't even mention that because I don't have any shame or limits to what I talk about or say, and offending someone, is at the bottom of my list when it comes to priorities.

Anyways, the Nazi's were told the Jews were their enemies, and acted on their beliefs.

I'm sure anyone would act the same way if they were magically convinced an entire people group is the source of their problems, especially a nation on the verge of total collapse like the Weimar Republic was.

BiggieBoy, your location is Belgium, you're excused from the "valuable" input I imagined you would have anyways.

I've taken the serious input into consideration, and I can understand where it is wrong, morally, but still it would help take a burden off the economy, you counter this by saying human life is more important than the economy, I guess I'll have to concede that.

Denny Crane! I agree, the DEBATE forum isn't for someone with a soft stomach anyways. That question about the two mental retards is interesting indeed. However, their immediate family would have to be consulted, I imagine in this case. Unless the entire family is made up of retarded people, (which is highly unlikely) then I'm sure there are some capable and responsible immediate family members who would have to be consulted, if not tried in a court system for neglecting their family members.

Which brings an interesting point, if a mentally retarded person is neglected, is their immediate family member prosecuted? It's strange to me, I don't know how that would work, is the family member automatically held responsible for them, are they not free to choose to care for them?

What if they are economically unable to care for them?

etc. I like this, I love to learn and hear other input from people, when it is serious, of course.

[Sar1n]

I believe they should be euthanized,

As much as life can get screwed up, it is life, and only the one who should have any say about when should it end is the one in question, unless it's very extreme case of someone extremely dangerous to his surroundings with no chance of change.

[Denny Crane!]

Rubicon Decision:

You are basically advocating book burning because the texts inherent are morally repugnant to right thinking people! Far different to allowing a holocaust, an absolutely irrelevant comparison it is to allow a book burning mindset to rule these forums. Hard views must be confronted, made to look ridiculous often but as in my post it also points to more relevant issues which aren't extreme but are actually happening in the UK and USA today.

You bring up the Asian thing, not sure why, plenty of asian posters on here. Lemondude advocating genocide of his own (chinese) people because they are a different sort and we in the west wouldn't understand. Its happening but we need to see these views, to understand why people think that, and to confront them. We've had black supremacists on claiming Pharaohs were all black, its a big movement, its good that it was debated on here.

There is nothing that you can't ignore on these forums that Menelik from Africa, my wife from south east asia or me the whitest of the white up in northern england can't get past and debate quite easily because it should be debated. There is no overtly racist stuff because that is stopped, just issues and ideas that are debated (sometimes the stupid ones outright crushed, rightfully so) and hashed out.

No book burning here, not today. I find your view on repression morally repugnant and absolutely dangerous to the forum and to societies everywhere.

[RubiconDecision]

Rubicon Decision:

You are basically advocating book burning because the texts inherent are morally repugnant to right thinking people! Far different to allowing a holocaust, an absolutely irrelevant comparison it is to allow a book burning mindset to rule these forums. Hard views must be confronted, made to look ridiculous often but as in my post it also points to more relevant issues which aren't extreme but are actually happening in the UK and USA today.

You bring up the Asian thing, not sure why, plenty of asian posters on here. Lemondude advocating genocide of his own (chinese) people because they are a different sort and we in the west wouldn't understand. Its happening but we need to see these views, to understand why people think that, and to confront them. We've had black supremacists on claiming Pharaohs were all black, its a big movement, its good that it was debated on here.

There is nothing that you can't ignore on these forums that Menelik from Africa, my wife from south east asia or me the whitest of the white up in northern england can't get past and debate quite easily because it should be debated. There is no overtly racist stuff because that is stopped, just issues and ideas that are debated (sometimes the stupid ones outright crushed, rightfully so) and hashed out.

No book burning here, not today. I find your view on repression morally repugnant and absolutely dangerous to the forum and to societies everywhere.

That's good, change the subject. A minority mentions racism and then you acuse them of advocating book burning. Where have I ever recommended that? The opposite is true as I believe in higher learning. In fact, I encourage opinions opposite my own, and enjoy listening and learning about all.

No Denny, I find your opinions equally disgusting and quite frankly your opinions allow evil to exist here and even tolerated. That makes your opinions even worse than the trolls. We will probably always despise each other's opinions. The difference as intelligent people is that we can tolerate them and discuss our differences. The opposite is true of racist trolls. Their goal is to create discord, something they are good at doing, and people with opinions like yours only encourage them that this place is a good venue.

[Denny Crane!]

Alright, well after reading most of this, I've read some very interesting points and some input that simply wasn't needed.

The comparison between retired peoples

The fact that a mentally retarded person does not have the ability to give consent to nor demand Euthanasia

Side note to RubiconDecision, when it comes to ToS, don't even mention that because I don't have any shame or limits to what I talk about or say, and offending someone, is at the bottom of my list when it comes to priorities.

As it should be so long as you come to the debate open.

Anyways, the Nazi's were told the Jews were their enemies, and acted on their beliefs.

I'm sure anyone would act the same way if they were magically convinced an entire people group is the source of their problems, especially a nation on the verge of total collapse like the Weimar Republic was.

I'd agree to a large extent the west is to blame for the Nazis, we drove a nation to its knees in punishment which made them seek any answer, easy answers and very quickly it was to late to stop.

But this is why the state killing people is unacceptable. Once you accept that this is a possibility, that it is morally acceptable then you open yourself up to abuse. There is no such thing as moral absolution for a state above a private citizen. Killing is wrong in anything but self defence. For state or citizen. And I don't believe in proactive self defence based on the crystal ball of the state.

I've taken the serious input into consideration, and I can understand where it is wrong, morally, but still it would help take a burden off the economy, you counter this by saying human life is more important than the economy, I guess I'll have to concede that.

Denny Crane! I agree, the DEBATE forum isn't for someone with a soft stomach anyways. That question about the two mental retards is interesting indeed. However, their immediate family would have to be consulted, I imagine in this case. Unless the entire family is made up of retarded people, (which is highly unlikely) then I'm sure there are some capable and responsible immediate family members who would have to be consulted, if not tried in a court system for neglecting their family members.

Family members frequently can't do it alone so the state is an acting partner in the care of mentally retarded people.

Which brings an interesting point, if a mentally retarded person is neglected, is their immediate family member prosecuted? It's strange to me, I don't know how that would work, is the family member automatically held responsible for them, are they not free to choose to care for them?

Only if they have made the choice to be the active carer are they responsible for the abuse.

What if they are economically unable to care for them?

etc. I like this, I love to learn and hear other input from people, when it is serious, of course.

Then it is the states responsibility.

[Cor De Ferrum]

As it should be so long as you come to the debate open.



I'd agree to a large extent the west is to blame for the Nazis, we drove a nation to its knees in punishment which made them seek any answer, easy answers and very quickly it was to late to stop.

But this is why the state killing people is unacceptable. Once you accept that this is a possibility, that it is morally acceptable then you open yourself up to abuse. There is no such thing as moral absolution for a state above a private citizen. Killing is wrong in anything but self defence. For state or citizen. And I don't believe in proactive self defence based on the crystal ball of the state.



Family members frequently can't do it alone so the state is an acting partner in the care of mentally retarded people.



Only if they have made the choice to be the active carer are they responsible for the abuse.



Then it is the states responsibility.

Okay, so we agree then, that the mentally retarded populace can be a burden on the healthcare system / economy?

[Denny Crane!]

That's good, change the subject. A minority mentions racism and then you acuse them of advocating book burning.

Accusing me of hyperbole when you said my views would allow another holocaust?

Oh and spare me the whole "I'm a minority card" this is a faceless internet forum, I don't know where you are from and have absolutely no reason to believe you or anyone else claiming any race or ethnicity.

Where have I ever recommended that? The opposite is true as I believe in higher learning. In fact, I encourage opinions opposite my own, and enjoy listening and learning about all.

Clearly not!

No Denny, I find your opinions equally disgusting and quite frankly your opinions allow evil to exist here and even tolerated. That makes your opinions even worse than the trolls. We will probably always despise each other's opinions. The difference as intelligent people is that we can tolerate them and discuss our differences. The opposite is true of racist trolls. Their goal is to create discord, something they are good at doing, and people with opinions like yours only encourage them that this place is a good venue.

Funny that since I am managing to turn this into a productive discussion that isn't about trolling or racism or anything else but about rights, and current issues and you are derailing it from your pedestal.

It appears you only like the discussions you like and would ban every other. Not a chance will I stand for that.

Cordeferrum has some crazy opinions but he stops short of advocating them, he raises them and then does actually discuss them. How are people to learn why things are so wrong if someone like you shuts down conversation with hysterical over reactions.

Okay, so we agree then, that the mentally retarded populace can be a burden on the healthcare system / economy?

They are a burden in the exact same way any other person that relies on the state and does not contribute. Unemployed, alchoholics, drug addicts, disabled people who are not mentally retarded.

[RubiconDecision]

Accusing me of hyperbole when you said my views would allow another holocaust?

Oh and spare me the whole "I'm a minority card" this is a faceless internet forum, I don't know where you are from and have absolutely no reason to believe you or anyone else claiming any race or ethnicity.



Clearly not!



Funny that since I am managing to turn this into a productive discussion that isn't about trolling or racism or anything else but about rights, and current issues and you are derailing it from your pedestal.

It appears you only like the discussions you like and would ban every other. Not a chance will I stand for that.

Cordeferrum has some crazy opinions but he stops short of advocating them, he raises them and then does actually discuss them. How are people to learn why things are so wrong if someone like you shuts down conversation with hysterical over reactions.

You should pm me instead of making a flame war.