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Thread: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

  1. #1

    Icon1 Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    The purpose of this thread is to discuss the inevitable problems which occur when trying to depict non-human races as a faction on the TW campaign map.

    I want to begin with the Skaven, but the discussion is open for any kind of input.


    ISSUES (gameplay-relevant differences to human societies)

    1. Skaven do not generally live on the surface and build or maintain settlements above ground
    2. Skaven maintain extensive underground networks and espionage which allow them to see without beeing seen
    3. Skaven have no diplomatic dealings with other races, temporary alliances of convenience at most
    4. Skaven do not peacefully trade with other races and have no monetised economy
    5. Skaven soldiers are not payed, they fight because they are dominated by stronger Skaven or because they lust for plunder and murder
    6. Skaven hardly have any use for industrial products or luxury goods besides what can be eaten or made into weapons
    7. Skaven reproduce a lot faster than humans and don't really need housing
    8. Skaven are hardly affected by plagues due to their short lifespan, high reproductive cycle and general resistance, but carry plagues everywhere they go

    POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS

    1. Possible motivation to hold cities after conquering them: Using the inhabitants as slaves. Upon a successful siege, Skaven should not have the option to "occupy", only to "plunder" and "exterminate". They should keep civil order through fear alone, maybe have the option to "sacrifice" (read: massacre) inhabitants to restore order
    2. Skaven could be able to recruit spies at (almost) no cost and receive huge bonuses for them, maybe even disable FOW completely for them?
    3. Make it impossible for Skaven to have alliances
    4. Make it impossible for Skaven to maintain trade agreements. If possible, restrict trade to Skaven settlements
    5. No idea yet
    6. If possible, restrict trade to raw materials and basic food
    7. Use an "underground colony" building which can be upgraded and radically improves pop-growth
    8. Give all Skaven characters traits which increase their chance to become infected. Make Skaven settlements immune to plague effects or counter them by balancing them with higher pop-growth

    I'm eager to hear your thouhts on this! =)
    Last edited by rummtata; March 22, 2013 at 09:41 AM.

    "To achieve everything that is possible, we must try to do the impossible." (H. Hesse)

  2. #2
    Bela's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    I think the mod makers have already have their idea about Skavens, but this is really an interesting point to discuss.
    1 and 2. I think it's almost impossible to represent the underground empire of the Skavens (lore-wise, under the Empire). But it is possible to give some core settlements to them (like occupied dwarf strongholds, smaller camps on the map and so on), and spawn skaven raiding parties.
    3. Prevent diplomat training, some scripts are needed to change diplomatic stances in cases of given conditions.
    4. Regarding economy, it's true that it is also something different. In this case, I really believe that we must live with the engine possibilities and accept that in Total War, skavens do trade. Although a huge reducement in trade income is also ok in my eyes, if one can make their build and train possibilities balanced (although question is what happens if they capture a settlement and receive 10k gold from plundering it).
    5. Training cost represents all the training fees, which can be high. Some kind of upkeep should be included as Skavens also need weapons, need something to eat and so on. Take it as a minimal fee to keep them alive
    6. That they do not use and luxury goods means they should have a unique building roster, with buildings they need. And certain bonuses can be added to those (any bonuses)
    7. cheap, untrained units with quick replenish pools is the answer
    8. also a hardcoded thing, everyone is affected to plagues. Will be funny to see a plague-monk die because of plague You can't do too much against it. Game engine. But if they are quick to be replenished, retraining is the solution (as one skaven looks like the other one, how do you know that it's still the same? )
    Last edited by Bela; March 22, 2013 at 10:11 AM.
    "No Rest until the Blood of Greenskins flows like Dark Ale upon the Earth!"

    +++ Josef Bugman +++




  3. #3

    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    In Kingdoms factions can be made generally immune to plagues, thanks to the Americas campaign. The populations can still suffer, but characters and armies won't decrease, IIRC.

    Honestly, the most lore-accurate depiction of Skaven would be to set them as the Rebel faction and have moderately high rebel spawn rates. I've tried campaigns in other mods while playing as the rebel faction and it's... interesting, to say the least.

    But for playability, we'll have to pretend that the Skaven are moving below ground when they move on the campaign map, and that when they conquer a city, it's them taking over the underground so severely the above ground becomes inhospitable. As for giving them better spies and such, that's pretty possible, but no way to FOW being off. Their empire is underground, after all, they don't necessarily know EVERYTHING going on above ground.

    They should also have a basic upkeep, they do have mouths to feed and armor to repair, after all, but a very cheap and ample recruitment, and poor unit quality, especially clanrats. At any given time, there could be 10 clanrats ready to train and retrain in a settlement, instead of 2-3.

    Building names could reflect their underground nature, being based around tunnel systems being dug out instead of regular infrastructure being built up.

  4. #4
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    The biggest skaven settlements have surface entrances and small warrens of some low ranking skaven around these entrances, these are their settlements as represented on the campaign map, there are of course smaller entrances and access points and satellite holds underground but these are more like villages, most villages are not represented in med2 anyway so that's not a problem. Large numbers of high ranking spies is not a problem. Skaven enslave or exterminate, when they "occupy" towns it's usually an occupation of ruins or a trap for their enemies, but this can be altered for gameplay purposes, the town is completely destroyed and the sewers become the new capital settlement of the region under skaven control, Skaven populations should be exceptionally unruly when "conquered" representing continual raids from the impenetrable underground labyrinth. Soldiers always cost money, petty warlords and mercenaries need to be bribed, equipment needs to be manufactured, slaves need to be taken from whatever jobs they were doing before it all builds up. Skaven trade amongst themselves, this isn't a problem if there's only one skaven faction. Number 7 is an excellent idea. Plague immunity is in the america's campaign already I believe.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  5. #5

    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    Sorry for all this movement. I finally move it to the palce where I think it was the best place to be. Good discussion to everyone.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    So they can be made plague-immune? Great =) Would it still be possible to give them he ability (via trait?) to *transmit* the plague, though? If I have to decide between Skaven which are immune, but also free of illness and Skaven which are not immune, but carry and transmit sicknesses, I am really torn.
    Perhaps one has to decide whether it is too much of an exploit to send infected/transmitting spies in enemy settlements. You can do that in vanilla already though. And the AI doesn't really need money, or could that really hurt an AI faction in the mod?

    You're right, they have material needs which can be represented using the ingame currency. I have no issues with metaphoric representation as long as there is a reasonable explanation. Trade within the Skaven empire only, I'm ok with that.

    It might be best to present the player with some kind of motivation for the Skaven's uncharacteristic behaviour (moving above ground, conquering cities on a large scale). Perhaps a change in Skaven politics? A sinister plan of the Grey Council? A prophecy all Skaven are obliged to fulfill? Problems in the underground tunnels, like a Skaven-specific plague, predators, earthquakes?
    Maybe a Skaven rebellion? The player's faction could represent a splinter group which is fighting against/banned from most parts of the underground society.

    Can you imagine the Skaven being able to recruit mercs for their needs?

    "To achieve everything that is possible, we must try to do the impossible." (H. Hesse)

  7. #7

    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    IIRC, there's a mod, I think it's Bellum Crucis, that has something like 5 new agent types, one being a plague spreader that spreads the plague to enemy settlements due to having a plague spreading ability. If something like this could be implemented, that'd be cool.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    Just to let you know, all buildings and ancillaries are done for Skaven.
    I m about to ask to Kolwen to include you in our dropbox so you could downloads our latest back up of SoW because you are wasting your energy on things that are already done. Much needs to be done on several areas and it is a shame your precious help in not guided to the good direction.

    Then, you will be free to be submods to improve factions etc.

    "With Hate, all things are possible." Malus Darkblade

  9. #9

    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    Yeah, that's a good idea, then there will be a better understanding of what needs to be done, instead of reinventing the wheel.

  10. #10
    knight of meh's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    just my instant responses to 2 and 5

    2-please no lifting the FOW just make there spies see more/better in general

    5- is it possible for us to make it so that if a skaven general has low fear/dread the lowest skaven all but desert and if he has high fear/dread they get improved moral? .. i know for example that if your faction leader has low authority and a large kingdom in Third age that your units that are not commanded by a general start to run away , not sure of the mechanics though
    Last edited by knight of meh; March 22, 2013 at 01:50 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    Quote Originally Posted by knight of meh View Post
    5- is it possible for us to make it so that if a skaven general has low fear/dread the lowest skaven all but desert and if he has high fear/dread they get improved moral? .. i know for example that if your faction leader has low authority and a large kingdom in Third age that your units that are not commanded by a general start to run away , not sure of the mechanics though
    I think that's part of vanilla, but might be able to be amped up in mods. It'd be good for Skaven to depend heavily on their generals being alive and leading their armies (from the back!), so if they're killed, all the units are more likely to route in battle, and flee on the campaign map.

  12. #12
    Bela's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    Quote Originally Posted by TWmadman View Post
    Just to let you know, all buildings and ancillaries are done for Skaven.
    I m about to ask to Kolwen to include you in our dropbox so you could downloads our latest back up of SoW because you are wasting your energy on things that are already done. Much needs to be done on several areas and it is a shame your precious help in not guided to the good direction.

    Then, you will be free to be submods to improve factions etc.
    A most unexpected and appreciated offer good sire! I humbly accept this challenge and will do my best to grow up to your tremendous work. For the remaining one month until real life will surely keep me away for an unknown (short?) time period, I'm at your service anytime.
    "No Rest until the Blood of Greenskins flows like Dark Ale upon the Earth!"

    +++ Josef Bugman +++




  13. #13

    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    Hope you can do a great job on the two things, for modding and IRL. And I'm sure that TwMadamn can give you coucil for the both lifes .

  14. #14

    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    I hope I can contribute, if nothing else, thinking outside the box and bug hunting. There were a few errors in .69 that should be corrected for .70, and surely new errors to pop up in the development process for the new campaign.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    Access to development releases would indeed greatly increase our ability put our efforts where they are needed. Right now I'm not even sure which factions will be included ^^

    What about Tombkings? They're not my specialty, to be honest I've never even seen that army on a table, let alone tried them myself. I've got the impression they more or less only defend their territory and there seem to be no living servants in their ranks. How does GW explain that they run around and fight battles, and how are they to be integrated into the campaign map structure?

    "To achieve everything that is possible, we must try to do the impossible." (H. Hesse)

  16. #16

    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    IIRC, their territory is present on the map, but I also have only limited knowledge of their lore. Will read up on them more.

  17. #17
    knight of meh's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/20...er-d4ob7e7.jpg

    ^ is this accurate?

    from my noobish perspective the tomb kings territory roughly translates to Egypt , and it was on the map Kolwen showed can't remember were that is though...

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post12304205

    found it the tomb kings would be in the lower right of the map
    Last edited by knight of meh; March 22, 2013 at 06:35 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    Why haven't I seen that before? Pure awesomeness!

    Any bigger and they would have to add lizardmen (which would be amazing in any case. Did I mention that BurgerKing is actually owned and managed by a gigantic Slann?)
    Last edited by rummtata; March 22, 2013 at 07:36 PM.

    "To achieve everything that is possible, we must try to do the impossible." (H. Hesse)

  19. #19

    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    Love the map, just wish it extended a little more to the East so we'd have more Dwarf holds. Other than that, s'awesomeness.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Factions like Skaven and Tombkings on the campaign map - how to make them fit into the concept and technical limitations of human empires

    let me just say i ve coded over 150 buildings for all factions. coding limit has been reached. ancillaries are rdy for all factions (around 40 per faction) half of them has been coded but i don t have the time to do the rest.
    all descriptions for buildings and ancillaries has been done too and if you played the Sundering you should know you will find tons of descriptions and immmersion to fluff.

    "With Hate, all things are possible." Malus Darkblade

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