Will pirates be as annoying as in Shogun ?

[Xuande]

I don't know if CA will tackle this issue in Rome II, but in Shogun, the pirates were a real annoyance, especially since their behaviour was rather unrealistic :

1/ They kept coming whatever you did, as if there was some inexhaustible source of pirate ships somewhere in the world. And the faster you destroyed their fleets, the faster they came back with brand new ones.

2/ As long as the country was divided, the other factions handled the pirate fleets. But when you started to grow, you would be the only one to face the endless pirate attacks.

Now in the real world, what happens is the exact opposite. As we can see in Somalia (for instance), pirates flourish when a country is poor and the political power divided and weakened, which enable adventurous people to earn their lives through criminal behaviour.

Therefore, if pirates are to be included in Rome, they should be :

- land based, somehow. It is either a faction ("rebels" ?), either the consequence of having multiple factions sharing the same seas (and the more factions you have, the more pirates are spawn),

- boosted by poor economic development : when coastal provinces are poor and subject to unrest, pirates should be more common. When coastal provinces are prosperous and happy, pirates should be rare,

- responsive to repression : when you score a victory over a pirate fleet, pirates should appear less frequently. On the contrary, the more you let them roam free and attack your trades routes, the more they should grow.


And it is not just a matter of realism. It's a matter of fun. It's no fun to chase immortal pirate fleets, if what all your successes earn you is ... even more pirates coming.

[Barristan Selmy]

There could be provinces more prone to being of the "adventurous" type like Cilicia or Creta for example, that create pirate fleets when they are part of the Rebel faction.

[Deadly Rabbit]

I hated those wako pirates

[aeoleron9]

The new risk-type naval regions will probably make them more manageable.

Also I think the entire rebel aspect has been somewhat missing since ETW, you just set a moderate tax rate and never have to worry about angry citizens ever again. If they put in rebels/pirates, I hope they put more thought into it this time. Even as simple as some context and flavor text would be better than endlessly respawning enemies that do nothing other than annoy you.

[torongill]

I don't know if CA will tackle this issue in Rome II, but in Shogun, the pirates were a real annoyance, especially since their behaviour was rather unrealistic :
1/ They kept coming whatever you did, as if there was some inexhaustible source of pirate ships somewhere in the world. And the faster you destroyed their fleets, the faster they came back with brand new ones.
2/ As long as the country was divided, the other factions handled the pirate fleets. But when you started to grow, you would be the only one to face the endless pirate attacks.
Now in the real world, what happens is the exact opposite. As we can see in Somalia (for instance), pirates flourish when a country is poor and the political power divided and weakened, which enable adventurous people to earn their lives through criminal behaviour.
Therefore, if pirates are to be included in Rome, they should be :
- land based, somehow. It is either a faction ("rebels" ?), either the consequence of having multiple factions sharing the same seas (and the more factions you have, the more pirates are spawn),
- boosted by poor economic development : when coastal provinces are poor and subject to unrest, pirates should be more common. When coastal provinces are prosperous and happy, pirates should be rare,
- responsive to repression : when you score a victory over a pirate fleet, pirates should appear less frequently. On the contrary, the more you let them roam free and attack your trades routes, the more they should grow.
And it is not just a matter of realism. It's a matter of fun. It's no fun to chase immortal pirate fleets, if what all your successes earn you is ... even more pirates coming.

Actually that's very truthful - while there are quite a few powerful factions, they all fight against the pirates, since their trade is being hit. However, once your faction becomes too powerful, your threat becomes much greater than the pest of the wako. Consequently, they focus on you and leave the pirates alone, which allows them to become more powerful. And since your faction is the major one and probably the richest one, the pirates will turn their complete attention to you. They are obviously land-based, but IIRC they were based on small islands off the coast of Japan, like Iki and Tsushima and were at least in part subsidised by local warlords. Piracy in that case would be a form of asymetrical warfare against your faction.

[Mausolos of Caria]

Actually that's very truthful - while there are quite a few powerful factions, they all fight against the pirates, since their trade is being hit. However, once your faction becomes too powerful, your threat becomes much greater than the pest of the wako. Consequently, they focus on you and leave the pirates alone, which allows them to become more powerful. And since your faction is the major one and probably the richest one, the pirates will turn their complete attention to you. They are obviously land-based, but IIRC they were based on small islands off the coast of Japan, like Iki and Tsushima and were at least in part subsidised by local warlords. Piracy in that case would be a form of asymetrical warfare against your faction.

Very true indeed. It was the same for the Romans- to come to TWR2- the pirates became huge plague to their empire during the early 1st century BC, until Pompeius wiped them out. But in the years prior to that they would raid towns everywhere and even attack towns far away from the coasts. As soon as the Roman military tried to catch them, they would just retreat into the sea or the rocky mountains of Cilicia. So yes, it is realistic. And pirates just HAVE to be annoying, that's their job

[Doe3000]

Piracy was a huge problem in the ancient world. Julius Caesar was abducted by Pirates in his youth, while Cilician Pirates were payed to transport the slave army of Spartacus out of Italy. They were such a huge problem that the Roman senate called upon Pompey the Great to smash them, which he did in a brilliant campaign. I hope Pirates will play a big role in the game, like they did in Empire. Hopefully they won't attack as frequently as the Wakko did in Shogun 2. The Pirates are supposed to act as annoying pests, but in Shogun 2 a pirate attack could easily cripple your entire economy if they raided a major trade port. Thuis behaviour would be better suited to the Rome II era, when pirates really were a major menace to Rome.

Here's an interesting article on the Subject - http://www.historytoday.com/philip-s...me-and-pirates

[CivFan]

I wasn't really thinking to much about pirates until this thread, but it got me thinking with amphibious assaults being an option pirates could be far more annoying. This also makes me question rebel armies. since armies will no longer require cities to build ships. How much more of a problem will rebels be? This might very well blur the line between pirate and rebel.

source "When moving armies over water, you no longer need to load them into a separate navy. They will automatically enter transport ships. You will still require a navy to protect them." http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/64152-Confirmed-Rome-2-features?

[Xuande]

This also makes me question rebel armies. since armies will no longer require cities to build ships. How much more of a problem will rebels be? This might very well blur the line between pirate and rebel.

Good point. However, CA would then have to work on a more agressive behaviour for "rebels" (in Shogun, they actually remained passive, once they had freed their home province).

@ Mausolos : "And pirates just HAVE to be annoying, that's their job "

The annoying point about pirates is not that they're annoying ... It's that they can't be handled realistically by the player. You should be able to get rid of them by scoring victories and maintaining civil order and prosperity.

[HigoChumbo]

answering the op in short... YARR.




Nah, seriously, i have played 2 or 3 long Shogun 2 campaigns and i never saw a pirate. I must be doing something wrong (in the other hand, those damn Chosokabe fleets were a pain in the ass.

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

Were there even pirates back then(or that many)? It was mostly land forces I think. Getting a hold of ships for them was quite hard.

[Jepekula]

Maybe read the thread before posting?

[Lord Uxbridge]

Nah, seriously, i have played 2 or 3 long Shogun 2 campaigns and i never saw a pirate. I must be doing something wrong (in the other hand, those damn Chosokabe fleets were a pain in the ass.

It was the same for me. They were virtually non-existent in my campaigns.

[Kenios]

Your proposal that pirates appear in poor provinces instead of richer ones make no sense. What's the point of robbing the poor? They have no money. It makes far more sense that pirates would prey on a rich trade route. The richer the trade route, the more pirates! We know pirates were a real menace back in the day, so they should act like it in the game.

[Xuande]

Your proposal that pirates appear in poor provinces instead of richer ones make no sense. What's the point of robbing the poor? They have no money. It makes far more sense that pirates would prey on a rich trade route. The richer the trade route, the more pirates! We know pirates were a real menace back in the day, so they should act like it in the game.

You misunderstood my statement. That Pirates should appear in underdevelopped provinces does not mean that they should remain there and prey upon the locals. They should appear there, and then leave to attack fleets, trade routes and unedefended ports and cities.

By conquering, developping or just by improving the civil order in the pirate-providing provinces, you should significantly decrease the rate of appearance of pirates. On the other hand, by scorching the earth, causing civil unrest and famine in a province, you should stimulate the pirate / rebel activity.

[Kenios]

I disagree that regions act as pirate generators. It's a mechanic that is ripe for abuse. Simply take a province close to someone else and let it keep churning out tons of free pirates to harass your neighbors.

[SirFork]

Hope not, hated them back in TW:S2.

[Serkelet]

Very good points, OP, certainly they make a lot of sense. But I think CA, instead, this time will go the Empire total War route and will make island factions pirates...

[Julio-Claudian]

Were there even pirates back then(or that many)? It was mostly land forces I think. Getting a hold of ships for them was quite hard.

There certainly were. Before Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus dealt with them virtually all ships paid tribute to them. Caesar was kidnapped by some pirates when he was young and held for ransom... he then came back and crucified them all. So yes there were many many pirates lol.


The OP raises an important issue.
I haven't played Shogun 2, I think it should be rather like Empire, they should have sort of bases, like small islands that can be dealt with. That's how it was after all.

[Toho]

The new risk-type naval regions will probably make them more manageable.

what the hell are you talking about? so I can capture a body of water with no island or whatever? WHUT?
A trading line I understand but a body of water?!