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Thread: One Year One Turn

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    Jack Lusted's Avatar Creative Assembly
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    Default One Year One Turn

    Hi all,

    There has been a lot of discussion about Rome II having one year per turn recently so here is campaign designer Dominique Starr on the subject:

    Hi!

    I understand that there is some concern regarding our decision to have one turn equal one year in Rome II.

    Fundamentally, it boils down to the fact that our campaign spans a considerable period of time, from the build-up to the Punic Wars through to the establishment of the Roman Empire. We chose this period because we felt that, as well as encompassing some of Rome’s most significant conflicts, territorial conquests and internal struggles, it gave us the potential to explore the rise and fall of those factions which would play an important supporting role in Roman history (such as the recently revealed Parthians, a major power who would long keep Rome’s eastward expansion in check as of their first conflicts during first century BC).

    So, if we assume a campaign length of around 300 years, that makes around 300 turns: we felt that to escalate this to 600 or 1200 turns would be detrimental to the campaign experience that we were aiming for. Bear in mind that the Rome II campaign is no longer time-restricted, however: the player can take as few or as many turns as they like to achieve their ultimate victory objectives and, as per usual, one is free to continue one’s campaign post-victory.

    We understand that seasonal variety is important to campaign map flavour and that the four season cycle from Shogun 2 worked well both visually and in terms of gameplay. One year turns are not the only thing to overcome with regards to this: the map is huge, with many climates that would each require visual and gameplay representations of their individual seasonal variants. The climates themselves do cover the extremes that one would expect to experience at the height of the baking summer or the depths of the long, dark winter, and rest assured that we are continuing to explore effective methods of representing seasonal change regardless of the yearly turns and map scale complexities.

    Movement is less of an issue. Yes, the map is huge and the turns long: why would it take my army one year to get from Roma to the alps? Forces are effectively moving in a state of battle-readiness but may be ordered into a ‘forced march’ (armies)or a ‘double-time’ (fleets) stance. Their movement extents are vastly increased, allowing them to assemble from afar in preparation for invasion or to support threatened possessions, albeit at the expense of their offensive and defensive capabilities: long-distance headshotting will not be a valid tactic.

    We expect characters who survive the challenges laid out before them to survive a good 40 years in play. Obviously there is an element of chance to this, and a character may well die in battle or at the hands of an unscrupulous agent before succumbing to old age, but during their campaign map tenure they will have plenty of opportunity to make a difference to their faction’s endeavours. Furthermore, the intention is to have characters gain experience faster than in Shogun 2, allowing them to reach their fullest potential faster as long as they are deployed consistently and successfully against their foes. Lastly, every general is affiliated with a ‘party’ within their faction, such as one of the major Roman or Carthaginian dynasties or the royal household of an Eastern kingdom and their court rivals: as these characters act around the campaign map or retire to the homeland to scheme, they contribute to their party’s overall influence within the faction, with repercussions that will carry on from one generation to the next.

    The military traditions established by armies and fleets over the years also persist beyond the lifespan of any one character or unit, a legacy handed down the generations by those who fought and died for the good of their people. This process will be slower than that of characters gaining ranks, but can span the entire length of a campaign: even if a military force is disbanded or destroyed utterly, it may be re-established once more, the past effects of its history and traditions intact.

    Cheers!
    -ds
    I will try and answer any follow up questions you may have
    Senior Designer

    Disclaimer: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.

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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    Good post.

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    ♘Top Hat Zebra's Avatar Equites Cohortales
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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    Can you answer whether or not it may be possible to mod the turns per year?

    Because 4 turns per year is far too few for me, so one per year would deter me from playing very many campaigns.

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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    Okay...so in short:

    -4 Season rotation in 4 Years?(not sure)
    -Climate Zone (Space) rather than just Seasonal Climates(Time)
    -Very Long Movement Ranges in Campaign.
    -Very Quick Character XP Growth.
    -Tradition Perks tied to The Units themselves rather to The Leader

    The aspects mentioned are Logical Measures for The Consequences of 1 Turn Per Year, Even Though I'm one of those who dont agree with 1 Turn per Year

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    Coxy's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    Great post - very informative. My only concern is I always love my generals - I love them sticking around as long as possible as I get attached to them (like in an RPG I guess) and so only 40 turns with a character seems far far too few...

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    wangrin's Avatar Unguibus et Rostro
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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    Personally, even if I can understand CA choice, I cannot accept it.

    So, I support ♘Top Hat Zebra :
    • will it be possible to mod "turn per year"
    • will it be possible to add seasons, even if it means that modders will have to create environment variants (autumn and winter for example)


    Adding season would means, at least :
    • season db tables to add season ID
    • season_climates tables to add weather characteristics depending of season and climate type
    • season_effect tables to define filepath to specific textures for trees, etc.



    Harcodding turn per year and "season" would damage even more modding.
    If CA campaign spread over 300 years, mods could focus over more limited time frame and not necessarily Antiquity.
    Last edited by wangrin; March 19, 2013 at 06:58 AM.

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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    So with one year/turn we should be able to raise our armies in 5/6 years/turns or recruitment will be faster?

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    emperor77's Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    As expected CA is going for the ultra fast super speed campaign gameplay similar to Shogun 2, again can't help but to feel disappointed as i generally LOATHE the campaign gameplay in Shogun 2 where 90% of the factions are gone within first 40 turns. I would have welcomed 600 or even 1200 turns, as it would have lead to a more rational campaign pace, but i guess we are stuck on hyper speed now.

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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    Thanks for informing us.

    Sorry, but I do not like the maximum 40 turns= 1 life for my generals. I always thought that most people like to bind themselves with the character-general, not with the army. It was more personal that way. Sad to see that this will change.

    Hope you rethink it, since there is no real point in keeping the timeframe, because the player rewrites history. Why do we have to reach 14 A.D. in 300 turns and not 100 B.C. in 600 turns? Are we running to keep our general alive like Alexander or Napoleon? Since we build an Empire, real timeframe has no point. Turns matter most.

    And it clearly seems you leave character traits out. I can't help wondering why? Is it more important to reach A.D. than to have important gameplay elements? Weird decision.


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    Sebu's Avatar Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    Didn't the original Rome have something around 500 turns in the main campaign? What was the reasoning behind scaling this down for the sequel? Why would it be detrimental to have the higher number of turns in the campaign?

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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    Question:

    Is there Seasonal Change In R2TW, albeit in 4 Years Cycle?

    If Yes, Turn adding mod would be Easier.

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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    "The Parthians fought the Empire much later..." Then make the campaign longer, not the number in the corner down right big. Isn't it obvious? Maybe I am missing sth...


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    wangrin's Avatar Unguibus et Rostro
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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    We have two problems here :
    1. adding more than 1 turn per year
    2. adding seasons

    Depending how "turn per year" system will be coded in game, adding turn per year could only need to modify one parameter.
    Adding seasons is far more difficult as you have :
    • to define weather for each season and each climate, this means to have acces to a db tables or anything that allow to store such data AND game engine being able to use those informations
    • to create graphic environment, something that is not necessarily limited to textures (exemple : snow fall effect, snow on buildings, etc.)

    « Le courage, c’est de ne pas subir la loi du mensonge triomphant qui passe, et de ne pas faire écho de notre âme, de notre bouche et de nos mains aux applaudissements imbéciles et aux huées fanatiques.. » Jean JAURES

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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    I think you are missing the beauty of the game play here. What attracted me to Total War in the first place was the opportunity to fight large scale battles as opposed to having the computer factor it out for me. Unfortunately, there is a gap between the "campaign map" and the tactical battle map. Many battles were more or less decided by the strategic position of units. To a degree greater separation and a fog of war can add some dynamics to the end, however, longer range movements completely undermines much of the strategy leading up to the battle. In an era where armies more or less smash into each other, any movement leading up to the battle can be crucial. Then again, I am the last guy to ask,... I prefer historically acurate battles to the "arcadic" mania that many prefer.




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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    It would also mean a different time interval required to research technology, as well as recruitment times, wangrin.

    Thank you, Mr. Lusted for your ongoing communication with the TWC members. My question is whether it will be possible to limit the overall research points per faction or the overall number of "researcher" type characters. The problem that I see lies in the fact that a faction could have just too many research points and then research the entire tree long before the campaign end, achieving a smashing superiority over the enemy and . One example is my NTW Russian campaign, where having conquered Rumelia, I now have four potential universities and I'm in the process of finishing up the entire tree just because I can, long before the end of the campaign.
    I also believe that it would be a good idea to enable the modification of the turns per year and the research tree, because it will facilitate the modification of the campagn length.

    If answering any of these questions and statements will constitute sharing of information that is not for share at the moment, please feel free to say so or, of course, disregard them completely.

    Actually I have to approve the limitation of the turns. In my vanilla RTW campaign I finished practically all opposition(except for some of the Eastern Europe steppe faction and the Parthians) around 70 BCE. In fact the only opposition was the Slave rebellion, which I squashed pretty fast. Afterwards there was no real challenge so I left the campaign.

    The same was true with lots of other campaigns, mods or not, never mind the faction. So yeah, I have no problem with the faster campaign. There will be lots of stuff to occupy my time, diplomacy, research, armies. I don't want to have a campaign of such length that Steam awards a medal "Actually finished the campaign".
    Last edited by torongill; March 19, 2013 at 07:25 AM.
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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    I was initially surprised by the one year per turn choice, but I thought I'd reserve judgement until I had more information. Glad to see CA are now providing us with more details!

    And now that we have them, it does look like it makes a lot more sense. I've said before that I think it's important turns are meaningful rather than numerous for the sake of it. I disagree with the notion that more turns necessarily create a deeper campaign experience. Hopefully, that can be modded for those who desire such a thing, but personally, I'd rather see how the game with its new mechanics works first before rushing to change something that might actually work very well in practice.

    I like that you've removed turn restrictions on campaigns - I always felt a little rushed, particularly in Shogun 2, so it will be good to be able to take as long or as little time as I like in my campaigns. I have one question regarding Generals - we can use them on the field or 'retire' them to their homeland - can we then 'recall' them back onto the field? And can they be developed off the field in a different manner to on it? For example, will they have skills that are more beneficial to politics at home than in battle?

    Either way, it sounds pretty interesting that these characters can be used in new ways beyond simply 'buffing' troops on the battle map. I like the thought of having a general fight several battles, before retiring him into politics and furthering his career another way than was possible than before. I can understand people may be upset that they don't have as many turns with a character as they like, but it sounds like the new army 'traditions' will counter-balance this by providing a constant throughout an entire campaign. Really, I'm just glad it sounds like the campaign side of things is getting something of an overhaul, because I felt it was getting a little stale. It's good to see a developer willing to attempt to innovate areas of a popular series these days

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    Xerrop's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    What exactly is wrong with 300 turns instead of 600? Doubling the time it needs to erect a building or researching a technology does not necessarily add much content regarding gameplay. And the ability to have traits for armies helps to secure your characters legacy, even when he is only active for 45 turns.

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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    I don't know about one turn per year, would've preferred four turns per year, with different seasons. But oh well.

    I have a question though. Will more factions than Rome and Carthage have the family/party choice option? Could you in that case confirm which factions will have it?

    Finally, this to CA for answering some of our questions about the campaign:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    One year per turn: Bad news...
    Only 8 playable factions: Very bad news...
    No Iberian faction: Worst news...
    And so on....
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    -Gallaecian Chieftain to a Roman briber.

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    Default Re: One Year One Turn

    Quote Originally Posted by wangrin View Post
    We have two problems here :
    1. adding more than 1 turn per year
    2. adding seasons

    Depending how "turn per year" system will be coded in game, adding turn per year could only need to modify one parameter.
    Adding seasons is far more difficult as you have :
    • to define weather for each season and each climate, this means to have acces to a db tables or anything that allow to store such data AND game engine being able to use those informations
    • to create graphic environment, something that is not necessarily limited to textures (exemple : snow fall effect, snow on buildings, etc.)
    We understand that seasonal variety is important to campaign map flavour and that the four season cycle from Shogun 2 worked well both visually and in terms of gameplay.
    The climates themselves do cover the extremes that one would expect to experience at the height of the baking summer or the depths of the long, dark winter, and rest assured that we are continuing to explore effective methods of representing seasonal change regardless of the yearly turns and map scale complexities.
    There's no way CA will not show season changes in Rome II as they have done in Shogun 2 because like it or not graphic sells the game so there'll be seasons though I hope 4 rather than 2.

    Seasons could alternate between years for the campaign map for example 270 starts with Spring, 269 Summer, 268 Autums and 267 Winter and so on.

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