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Thread: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

  1. #41
    torongill's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    So you by "control" you mean also the AI-controlled units to which you can give some simple commands? I don't buy it. FOTS apparently(I haven't played it) lets you control 40 units in one stack. Napoleon mods(DarthMod Napoleon for example) have 40 land units and 30 naval units as a matter of fact. All evidence and this includes statements of designers that it's difficult to control such big armies, the inclusion of the Tactical map, the reported ability to let the AI control some units of your army and issue simple orders, all evidence suggests that you will be able to have stacks of forty units. Oh and the unit icons will become progressively smaller the more units you have.

    So no, I don't think you're correct.

    As for unit size, if you look carefully at Jack's Vidcast, around 0:41-0:45 you can see a unit of hastati. They're 25 across, 7 full ranks and an eighth rank of five men for a total of 180 men. Just before that you can see a similar unit behind a wall, three deep and with a very long front.

    So at least for now it seems that the frontage is not very small.
    Last edited by torongill; March 11, 2013 at 10:39 AM.
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  2. #42
    Sun Jetzu's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    Quote Originally Posted by Poniatowski1991 View Post
    That is true Sharpe.

    But still CA claim to put 'tens of thousands'on the screen. That's like 10.000, but then in multiple terms right??

    We have all seen the Carthage battle preview, the city is big enough to harbour as many as 20.000 or 30.000 men? Imagine how epic that would be!!


    Bu then it is perhaps my misunderstanding, they mentioned in previous TW-games thousands of units, now they are speaking of tens of thousands.
    This was a good thread, we need to bring this back up again. How big will the unit sizes be, and will it be different from faction to faction. Or just Unit to Unit. We saw how big romes army was, is that the standard size for all units? All factions?
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  3. #43

    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    The logic would be that a legion is composed of 10 cohorts. Then you add the staff, the auxiliaries, siege engines, cavalry. I organized my armies like that in Roma Surrectum II: each legions was 10 cohorts (including the first one with the eagle) plus side units.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    At some point the ability of the AI to function suffers due to the numbers of units involved and the thousands of mathematical calculations occurring simultaneously. I would not want to see realism suffer simply to get more troops on the field which is more aesthetics than anything.

  5. #45
    Sun Jetzu's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    Quote Originally Posted by alstl View Post
    to get more troops on the field which is more aesthetics than anything.
    More Awsome.
    Just upgrade your computer to handle more units, or play on low settings.
    More units means more epic battle, closer to reality.
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  6. #46

    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    There's no chance the engine could handle that many troops and I also don't think it would be that fun. How are you supposed to maneuver 5,000 man legions? And the battles would take far too long to be enjoyable unless the kill rates were insane. Most Total War players don't have days to fight single battles.

    I get what you're going for, OP, and I think it would be cool and make for epic screenshots, but I don't think it's practical from a gameplay, design, or technical point of view. We're talking about fully rendered dudes here in 3D with individual facial animations, not sprites.

    As for "tens of thousands" on their website, that could just mean four full stacks vs. four full stacks where reinforcements dribble in in the classic Total War style. Then you have a battle with "tens of thousands of men," just not all at once.

  7. #47
    magpie's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    I expect epic size battles.
    First off, CA are aiming for fewer more important battles so the old skirmish type confrontation,s should not emerge.
    As the recruiting seems to be by Legion, It may well be that,s the way it will break down rather than by the player picking all uber units for their army.
    The player will be allowed to recruit a balanced legion.?
    Probably we will see if we want? more than 10000 men on the battlefield, That 10000 number has been quoted since RTW.
    If the battlefields are going to be much larger that gives pathfinding a chance to work.

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  8. #48

    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    I would also LOVE to see this epic battles with ten thousands of men on the screen. Besides of eventual technical problems (remembering the cool graphics and the individual behaviour of every single one of them) one condition would be to FEEL really heavy losses. So if you, like in the battle of the Teutoburg Forest crush three Roman Legions or lets say 10.000, 20.000 or even 30.000 men at once, it should be a great damage to the enemy.
    Because in the current total wargames, if it would be possible to create such an army I would tell all my cities to re-recruit units and a few turns later everyone is back. So I think they have to give the player the feeling that he/she fought a "Heroic Battle" which kicked the enemy's ass and not seeing the same size army three turns after again. I hope you know what I mean

  9. #49
    Julio-Claudian's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    If there are like 400 men in a cohort on huge settings and 40 units per stack, I'll be happy as can be.

  10. #50
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    Quote Originally Posted by Concillius View Post
    How many units were in M2?
    20 per army, but it could run an 8 player game (the warscape games put your allies in reserve which IMO is retarded, completely negates weight of fire.) In theory the game could handle 80 vs 80 with 253 men per unit with some strain. So 40,480 in a battle. I'd say 20,000 men had minimal issues and it got better from there.

    The newer games are optimized to run at least as well despite being more advanced.

    But realistically you can only control 3 units optimally, so whether it's 20 or 40 is probably negligible unless they're grouped into 3 parts.

    That's why military units have been lumped into 3 divisions since antiquity.

    The classic roman army was 2 grouped roman legions and 2 allied alae, one on each flank. Then they doubled it to 4 legions and 2 alae per flank, etc. Plus the early legions were deployed in 3 lines of battle.

    Medieval Armies were divided into 3 battalions: Van, Main, and Rear.

    Modern militaries have 3 platoons per company, 3 companies per battalion, 3 battalions per brigade, 3 brigades per division, 3 divisions per corps, etc. give or take 1 or 2. We can handle like 5 tasks at once, but 3 is the most efficient for the human mind.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; May 19, 2013 at 01:54 PM.
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  11. #51
    Eofor's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    20 per army, but it could run an 8 player game. In theory the game could handle 80 vs 80 with 253 men per unit with some strain. So 40,480 in a battle. I'd say 20,000 men had minimal issues and it got better from there.

    The newer games are optimized to run at least as well despite being more advanced.
    I meant "how many different units are in the game" not "how many units can be brought to one battle".

  12. #52

    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    Quote Originally Posted by Julio-Claudian View Post
    If there are like 400 men in a cohort on huge settings and 40 units per stack, I'll be happy as can be.
    Yes, and it would be great if the (Roman) armies are structured in legions, cohorts, maniples and so on. So if a Centurion for example dies, his century would be morally weakened and not only if the commander of the whole army dies.
    Advancing lower command-ranks (centurion, commander or something) by winning battles and collecting experience to higher ones, like legati. By this one can have hierarchical structures even within single armies. Of course, this would be a lot (?) more work for the developers, but would also be interesting.

  13. #53
    torongill's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    All depends on whether you need the AI to command and also on the strength of the PC. In a 4vs4 scenario in which let's say the max number of men per unit is 250, you can have a max of 80 000 men on the battlefield(250*40*4*2). The engine is certainly capable of that if the AI isn't tapped(I.E. players control them). There won't be pathfinding problems as well. The question is whether the hardware is capable of supporting this number of units on one hand and whether the exe, limited by its 32 bits, is able to handle the calculations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernicus II View Post
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  14. #54
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    Quote Originally Posted by Concillius View Post
    I meant "how many different units are in the game" not "how many units can be brought to one battle".
    In the vanilla game? Maybe 200 give or take. There's a fair amount of repetition. But if I'm not mistaken Fall of the Samurai only had like 30-40 units and while limited it felt like a complete game.
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  15. #55

    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    It doesn't matter how big the units are in vanilla Rome 2, or how many you can control, because it's something that we've been able to mod since Empire.

    You want 40 units under your command? Go for it. 400 men per units? Be my guest, all possible with just a few clicks.

    I play Shogun 2 and Napoleon with 41 units numbering between 200 and 500 men per unit, around 10-15,000 men per army and it plays fine, except for slower unit animations.

    It's no big deal(for me), after a few casualties things speed up.

  16. #56
    Sun Jetzu's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    Thats what makes Darthmod so damn awsome. Because of the awsome unit sizes.
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  17. #57
    McCarronXLD's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    Personally I prefer commanding less units, but having a lot more men per unit. Wish we could accurately portray the scale of these conflicts but I don't know if TW will ever be capable of doing so.
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  18. #58
    Julio-Claudian's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    Did anybody count the number of men in the units in the Carthage video?

  19. #59
    torongill's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    I counted 180 hastati in the part where a unit stands and waits for the wall to fall down. It's 25 across, 7 ranks and an eighth rank of five men. But I did it once so I might've been wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernicus II View Post
    What's EB?
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    "Per Ballista ad astra!" - motto of the Roman Legionary Artillery.
    Republicans in all their glory...

  20. #60
    Julio-Claudian's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Rome 2's unit sizes, legion sizes, battle sizes and full battle scales

    Quote Originally Posted by torongill View Post
    I counted 180 hastati in the part where a unit stands and waits for the wall to fall down. It's 25 across, 7 ranks and an eighth rank of five men. But I did it once so I might've been wrong.
    Cool
    I guess we can assume that's on medium settings. Can't we? lol

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