Someone in the PE team must have really liked the Thracians...

[King_Azzole]

Ok that was kind of ridiculous. I was fighting a bridge battle on the defensive. 4 Units of Athenian Hoplites, 2-3 chevrons each. The rest of my stack was hoplites except for 2 units of cretian archers. The Thracians attack and with just about 4 units of Falxman and 2 units of bastarnae along with the regular rifraff of warbands, they almost annihilated my entire stack. I have faced seluecids, romans, illyrians. Nothing compares to these Thracians!!! Falxman with a 20 attack! Not even Spartan hoplites come close to that! Not even Hypaspists. Nothing. Not to mention they both have the "frighten foot" attribute yet Spartan hoplites do not... umm ok. You would think with a 20 attack that they would be low on defense. Nope. 16 base defensive rating, plus an 18 morale. Kind of makes me think that someone who was balancing these units were Thracian fans... So I nuetered them. I dropped the attack of the falxman down to 14, bastarnae to 15 and took away frighten infantry from both. Hopefully now a simple falxman unit (240 upkeep) cannot destroy 4 units of Athenian hoplites (400ish upkeep each). /rant

[Zuwxiv]

The Falx was not a weapon to be trifled with. To the Romans, holding up their shields for protection, it was quite a shock when the blade simply went straight through the shield and into the body of said Roman.

I'm not sure about high defensive ratings, but a very high attack rating is definately justified.

Edit: And I love that photo, the Romans with ditigal cameras. Classic, you might say [/StupidJokes]

[King_Azzole]

That photo is AWSOME!! Holy crap. Ok I understand it was a nasty weapon and all. But regardless, 20 attack? Why not just make it a reasonable level like 12-14 (which is still high considering normal hoplites have a 9) and make it armor piercing? Also, whats up with the extremely high morale? Defensive skill? hmm... Nice pic though.

[Invoker]

Anyone who charges into battle half naked must have a high morale...

[boofhead]

Excellent photo - that dude is quite frightening. The Romans would have to use their pila to great effect prior to the thracian making contact! They must have had to shoulder-barge the enemy with a quick little shield charge while the enemy raised their falxes or something. Anyway, great pic!

Aren't the thracians meant to be a little psycho like berserkers etc anyway?

[Callicles]

So, the thracian breaks through the shield but how does he get his weapon out, it looks stuck in that picture. If that picture is accurate, there should be a noticeable weakness in defense when making an attack.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Defensive rating of 16? For a falxman with no armour, no helmet and no shield? Ridiculous! What is he, an acrobat?

[mcantu]

I've never had much of a problem with falxmen. While they are engaged with an armored unit, just attack them with missile fire. Since they have no armor, they will rout quickly.

Another question...why are Thracian Infantry classed as missile troops?

[Helepolis]

So, the thracian breaks through the shield but how does he get his weapon out, it looks stuck in that picture. If that picture is accurate, there should be a noticeable weakness in defense when making an attack.

Exactly ! His weapon will be most likely useless, or he will be vulnerable while struggling to get it out. Of course, should the legionnaire survive he would be without shield. If I remember correctly, the falcatas were one of the few occasions where the romans decided to adjust their armor and they put extra iron reeinforcements on body parts suspectible to be hit by those weapons, as the shoulders i.e..

[florin80]

What are you people talking about? 16 for defence is not much. The spartans have 28 for defence, the athinaioi have 32 and the regular greek hoplitai has 27. They are all much better at this. And about the attack. It`s true that the hoplites have somewhere in the region of 9->12, but if they(falxmen) would have not high attack, with their small defence value they would have been worthless, which historically they were not.
@Helepolis the falx was another reason to reinforce their helmets. AFAIK.

[King_Azzole]

What are you people talking about? 16 for defence is not much. The spartans have 28 for defence, the athinaioi have 32 and the regular greek hoplitai has 27. They are all much better at this. And about the attack. It`s true that the hoplites have somewhere in the region of 9->12, but if they(falxmen) would have not high attack, with their small defence value they would have been worthless, which historically they were not.
@Helepolis the falx was another reason to reinforce their helmets. AFAIK.

Perhaps, but I am referring to the "Defensive Skill" not the Armor or Shield factor. I think the defensive skill is much more important in some ways than armor or shield. If you pit someone with a 30 defensive factor of pure defesive skill against someone with 30 of armor and shield with no defensive skill would not the higher defesive skill win most of the time? Hmmm I will have to do some experiments. Either way, I cannot deny the fact that a few falxman and bastarnae units are able to rip through thousands of hoplites like they were peasants.

[Dramascus]

so you encountered a situation where their close combat expertise got the better of you... why go change the unit.txt it because you lose once?.

if you fight troops like that without giving yourself the opportunity to flank them they will get the better of you. try fighting it again by putting your troops back further so they can march over the bridge and face you in the open. then flank/rout them. if you dont have eneough troops or cavalry to flank then, well, youve just been outgunned for once, its no big deal.

btw, ranged units absolutely annihiliate falxmen. no armour/shield means zero defence against projectiles from any angle.

[florin80]

Perhaps, but I am referring to the "Defensive Skill" not the Armor or Shield factor. I think the defensive skill is much more important in some ways than armor or shield. If you pit someone with a 30 defensive factor of pure defesive skill against someone with 30 of armor and shield with no defensive skill would not the higher defesive skill win most of the time? Hmmm I will have to do some experiments. Either way, I cannot deny the fact that a few falxman and bastarnae units are able to rip through thousands of hoplites like they were peasants.

Maybe, but they are much more vulnerable to missliles and cavalry charges, so I don`t think they can be called a super weapon. This being said, you are all free to make comments on it or even modify the EDU and upload it as an alternative one. And please take the last remark as being constructive(as it was intended to be). :original:

[Helepolis]

That amazing photo showed the outcome of a falcata hitting a shield. Now imagine a spear or sarissa in the shields place. The falxmen would shorten it with a couple slashes to the size of a tooth pick. You had your hoplites in defense mode I guess. Now I wonder what happens if yout put same units against each other, but make the hoplites charge when they falcatas are about to make contact. I wonder if the outcome would be different. If so the game would model the clash of the two weapon types exactly how I imagine it.Just a thought.

Cheers,

H.

[florin80]

That amazing photo showed the outcome of a falcata hitting a shield. Now imagine a spear or sarissa in the shields place. The falxmen would shorten it with a couple slashes to the size of a tooth pick. You had your hoplites in defense mode I guess. Now I wonder what happens if yout put same units against each other, but make the hoplites charge when they falcatas are about to make contact. I wonder if the outcome would be different. If so the game would model the clash of the two weapon types exactly how I imagine it.Just a thought.

Cheers,

H.

If you are refering to the picture from this topic then you should know that it is a falx and not a falcata. There is a difference. See this link:
http://gk.ro/sarmizegetusa/
On the top left click on the falx dacica.

[Helepolis]

Thanks. I was somehow thinking the falcata is a long (pole version) of the falx. A quick google search taught me that the falcata is a kopis type sword. Interesting fact: The word "falcata" is (according to Wikipedia) an invention of modern times and was not used in ancient times.

Excerpt: "Since "falcata" is not a term used in Classical Latin, it is difficult to tell when, or if it is being referred to in ancient literature. There is, however, one passage that is generally agreed to refer to this type of sword, in Seneca's De Beneficiis 5.24. In this passage a veteran is on trial for roughing up his neighbors in an argument over a road that ran near their properties. The trial comes before Caesar, and the veteran asks him if he remembers how a young soldier once brought him water in his helmet, when he (Caesar) was stuck under a tree with a sprained ankle, unable to get a drink for himself.

"Then, Imperator, you could recognize that man, or that helmet?" Caesar answered that he couldn't recognize the helmet, but certainly the man, and added, a bit irritated I think, "And you certainly are not him!"
"It's not surprising," said the man, "that you do not recognize me, Caesar; for when that happened I was whole. Afterwards, at Munda my eye was gouged out, and my skull smashed in. Nor would you recognize that helmet if you saw it: it was split by a Spanish saber (machaera Hispana). "

Caesar awarded the case to the veteran."



Anyway I just did a quick test on mediuim difficulty using 1.7 PE and Bi.exe. The Athenoi Hoplites made short process of the attacking falxmen. (3 vs 3 on huge unit size). Rougly 2/3 of my hoplites were still standing when the falxmen started to route. The outcome was differnt with standard hoplites (same setup) but this time the hoplites routed and around 40 % of the falxmen had presished. The hoplites seemed to do better when I took them out of guard mode and made them charge.

Considering the out come of the quick battles, hoplites are far from being peasants compared to falxmen.

Cheers,

H.

[florin80]

Thanks. I was somehow thinking the falcata is a long (pole version) of the falx. A quick google search taught me that the falcata is a kopis type sword. Interesting fact: The word "falcata" is (according to Wikipedia) an invention of modern times and was not used in ancient times.

Anyway I just did a quick test on mediuim difficulty using 1.7 PE and Bi.exe. The Athenoi Hoplites made short process of the attacking falxmen. (3 vs 3 on huge unit size). Rougly 2/3 of my hoplites were still standing when the falxmen started to route. The outcome was differnt with standard hoplites (same setup) but this time the hoplites routed and around 40 % of the falxmen had presished. The hoplites seemed to do better when I took them out of guard mode and made them charge.

Considering the out come of the quick battles, hoplites are far from being peasants compared to falxmen.

Cheers,

H.

Right, thanks for the test! However, you do mean 1.6 PE with Bi.exe, right? I made this mention so people won`t think that we began releasing RTRPE v1.7.

[Helepolis]

Yes. I meant 1.6.

Cheers,

H.

[King_Azzole]

I would think a unit of hoplites standing side by side with spears would be able to deal a decent amount of damage to an opponent who tried to approach without a shield or armor. I can understand the Falxs strength but the spear has strength too. Its long and narrow allowing for multiple hoplites to engage a single falxman at a time. I actually had to charge in with Asian elephants to stop the total massacre of my army. The point is, I had outnumbered them greatly, and had elite units like Athenian hoplites in the ranks. 4 units of falxman with 2 bastarnaes should not have massacred an entire stack of spear wielding hoplites (which by the way IIRC the hoplites shields were much sturdier than a romans). Either way, I didnt post this out of spite, although it did shock me a bit. I just wanted to share my view that I think someone on the PE team went overboard on these bad boys I dont remember them raising so much hell in Gold.

[florin80]

Shos, Sanky and later on Crymson(the last 2 rebalancing works came from him) were the ones doing the rebalancing for Platinum. I don`t know about Sanky, but Shos and Crymson are also members on TWC forums and maybe they can tell you better why some things are like this and like that.