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Thread: Difference between Levies and Militia?

  1. #1
    BM309K58SMERCH's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Difference between Levies and Militia?

    Probably the easiest question in the Vestigia Vetustatis. What is the difference between Levies and a Militia?
    I'm making a mod for M2:TW, and I'm thinking of making common units for all factions (much like the Militia spearmen, archers...etc.). So I just wanted to clear up what is the difference between the two terms.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    A levy is a call to arms of able bodied men (and can mean the body of troops that result from this call to arms).
    A militia is a military organisation composed of part time soldiers.

    As in effect both imply non-professionals they often can be used interchangeably, but they doesn't mean the same thing.

    A roman legion is a levy (raised annually or in case of need), but as it's member are civilians when not called to arms, it could be seen as a kind of militia. Same for greek citizens hoplites. The army is levied, but it could be seen, globally, as the city militia.

    Now, in some cases a militia is a permanent organisation composed of non-proffessionals. Like medieval burghers or communal militias. The militia always exist but most of its member are called only in case of mobilization (and are trained from time to time).

    Edit

    There is also a quality aspect. Often "levy" imply the recruitment in haste of non soldiers, ie inferior troops.
    While it may be true, what should be kept in mind is that if they serve long enough or are given a good and long training (like apparently the roman did) levied troops could be as tough as professionals.
    Levy just means how soldiers are recruited, it's not necessarilly a quality.

    Although, in the case when we are speaking of the body of troops that was just raised, that generally means green troops. So a low value military unit (even if some members of a levy could be veterans of several campaigns, what is often meant by the word is green troops)
    Last edited by Keyser; March 06, 2013 at 12:23 PM.

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    BM309K58SMERCH's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    Is there any other names for non-professional units?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    Conscripts, but it's more modern (and is basically the same as "levied").

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    BM309K58SMERCH's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    I think the 4 names (including Ashigaru, since it is Japanese themed) as an umbrella term for non-professional units are fine. Thank you very much. (+rep)

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser View Post
    There is also a quality aspect. Often "levy" imply the recruitment in haste of non soldiers, ie inferior troops.
    Depends what period; levy in Merovingian period actually means a highly trained reserve that only mobilized during campaign, while milites, which seems where the term militia came from, generally means standard force that maintain even in peace. Overall the term levy generally means a force that only mobilizes when require but not its quality.
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    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    Levy implies involuntary service; militia voluntary.

    Quality-wise, the assumption is that a levy will sweep up everyone that can hold a weapon, and is tied to an emergency situation, whereas militia have regular training sessions.

    It could even be layered, with a standing unit/household guards, freemen/yeomen who have obligations and their own arms, and the cannon fodder.

    While both levy and militia might only be activated for local campaigns, the levy might be forced to fight in out of area operations, whereas militia tend to be tied to defense of their districts.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Depends what period; levy in Merovingian period actually means a highly trained reserve that only mobilized during campaign, while milites, which seems where the term militia came from, generally means standard force that maintain even in peace. Overall the term levy generally means a force that only mobilizes when require but not its quality.
    Thank you for repeating what i said in the lines just after your quote ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    Levy implies involuntary service; militia voluntary.
    That's not universal though. Many militias didn't imply voluntary service. In the french monarchy, the royal/provincial militia was submitted to a form of conscription. The burghers and communal militia were linked to census and craftmanship too, rather than voluntary service, at least iirc.

    While both levy and militia might only be activated for local campaigns, the levy might be forced to fight in out of area operations, whereas militia tend to be tied to defense of their districts.
    This point too is far from being universal though.

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    Anna_Gein's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    Doesn't militia imply the existence of a long run institution whereas levies doesn't ? Institution from which the existence would often translate with its maintain even in the form of a small core during peace time as keyser rightly point out ?

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    Praeses
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    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    This is the "phalanx/hoplite" debate all over again

    Levy is derived from the Latin word to raise: it describes how the described group was recruited (typically compulsion, but not I think neccesarily).

    As mentioned militia derives from the word for soldier, so it describes what the described group is.

    Levies can serve in the militia, or a militaman might be a volunteer, and a levy might (with time) become an experienced veteran.

    To my mind a levy is a new recruit, compelled to serve. Once a certain amount of experience is gained they should more properly be described as a soldier or other suitable term.

    Militia has certainly come to mean a part-time soldier (whether compelled or volunteer) and could have any level of experience. Would it be fair to say the Akritai, citizen dsoldiers of Byzantium's eastern borders were a militia organisation? IIRC they were voluntary, in that they took service in return for their land and lived and farmed their marches and rallied to repel raiders and harass invaders. The warlike conditions of their service meant they were often hardened veteran troops, despite their part-time status.
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    BM309K58SMERCH's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    Well, I just wanted an over-simple explanation of the difference between the two terms. I don't want this to turn into a debate. If you want to do that, then it is out of the thread's topic. But whatever, I already got my answer, thank you all.
    I'm making a mod, and it has a fantasy setting, and I'm thinking of giving a simple "name" for the common units (If I leave the names "Town Militia", "Spear Militia"..etc., it'll look really cheap).

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser View Post
    While it may be true, what should be kept in mind is that if they serve long enough or are given a good and long training (like apparently the roman did) levied troops could be as tough as professionals.
    Levy just means how soldiers are recruited, it's not necessarilly a quality.
    3-gold ranks experience levy unit is not bad. I've had a 2-silver rank experience Pike Militia in Rome: TW. Remember, this is not a hardcore history thread. I just thought about asking this here instead of the M2:TW forum because I know I will get better answers.

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    Minas Moth's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    levies are levied, militia is mustered. simple as that...


  13. #13

    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by BM309K58SMERCH View Post
    Probably the easiest question in the Vestigia Vetustatis. What is the difference between Levies and a Militia?
    I'm making a mod for M2:TW, and I'm thinking of making common units for all factions (much like the Militia spearmen, archers...etc.). So I just wanted to clear up what is the difference between the two terms.
    Rather depends on when and where, for instance US WBTS, Militia ( Inrolled militia) service is all able bodied citizens from 16-45, unerolled Militia ( the levies) all able bodied males 16-60.

    See here for one usfull exposistion, or try Social and military history of th British Army by c Barnet. http://sdf.alabama.gov/about-asdf/history
    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.” Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?





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    BM309K58SMERCH's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    It is settled. Sphere has provided me with the perfect answer to my question.
    I have renamed them all to Militia now.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    Another battle won in my war against homonyms

  17. #17
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    Levying - demanding something owed by an obligation. It's a very broad term. One can levy taxes, for example. Thus "levies" can mean any kind of soldier called up to serve, including militiamen. Militia, though, is a much more specific term. It is applied to organizations of civilians trained and serving as part time soldiers.


    In the medieval settting, I'd probably call non-mercenary troops from cities militiamen (due to them having training and organization provided by the town's authorities), and non-mercenary, non-professional (i.e. not retainer) troops from the countryside (castles) - levies.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser View Post
    Thank you for repeating what i said in the lines just after your quote ?
    I disagree your claim that levy force was inferior.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  19. #19

    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    I disagree your claim that levy force was inferior.
    Then learn to read ?

    Sorry to be rude, but i never "claimed" a levy was an inferior force, i even said the same things than you about some levy being highly trained and though or composed of veterans. I said, however, it can sometimes be used in that sense... That's not the same thing as claiming it though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser View Post

    There is also a quality aspect. Often "levy" imply the recruitment in haste of non soldiers, ie inferior troops.
    While it may be true, what should be kept in mind is that if they serve long enough or are given a good and long training (like apparently the roman did) levied troops could be as tough as professionals.
    Levy just means how soldiers are recruited, it's not necessarilly a quality.

    Although, in the case when we are speaking of the body of troops that was just raised, that generally means green troops. So a low value military unit (even if some members of a levy could be veterans of several campaigns, what is often meant by the word is green troops)
    Often, like in "not always"...
    Imply is different from "mean"

    Really another time sorry if i feel like i am being agressive, but it's just that, while i don't care if you add points that i forgot, or precise a few of them because i wasn't clear, or if you give other exemples, or show me where i can be wrong...
    I dislike being taught things i already know and it's even worse when i already said them.

    That you bring the merovingian exemple, i have no problem with it. That you ignore the elements of my post where i gave a similar reasoning to yours... Or when you say i claimed things that i didn't, however, is another matter...

  20. #20

    Default Re: Difference between Levies and Militia?

    Blatta Optima Maxima already pointed out above, levies render military service to their social superiors through obligation, while militia do so by communal association (i.e. through cities and towns).

    You have to realise that these terms describe relationships, not quality. A lord would raise levies from among his vassals; a knight could therefore be a 'levy' in the sense that his lord calls on him to render military service as per his obligation.

    In some ways it makes very little sense to have 'levies' as separate 'units' in the game, along the same lines as 'knights', etc.

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