Germania: the Nation that Defeated Rome

**Birk** · February 28, 2013, 06:27 AM

Since there is so much speculation about the battle of Teutoburg. I recommend you to watch this for some history lesson about Arminius. Arminius was born in Germania, taken as hostage by Rome, become knight of Rome, turned against Rome and defeated Rome (3 Legions).

**~~weirdoascensor~~** · February 28, 2013, 06:29 AM

Germania's a Nation?
In 9?

**Birk** · February 28, 2013, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by weirdoascensor

Germania's a Nation?
In 9?

It was known as Germania by the Romans. Blame Julius Caesar for calling all the tribes for Germania.

**Menelik_I** · March 04, 2013, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by weirdoascensor

Germania's a Nation?
In 9?

Same reaction for me, it is always amusing how people are quick to confuse the Geographical area name with Nations, it is embarrassing. Germania refers to to a geographical region in 9 AD, making a direct national claim based on current day Germany doesn't make sense unless you are Goebels in 1939 and running very low on imagination.

As for the defeat itself the point for Rome to retreat was that there wasn't much of anything of value beyond the Rhine anyway, otherwise they could put 100k men in a punitive expedition to recover the lost Eagles in double quicktime, also I don't see how occupying the geographical region known as Germania up to the Elbe would change the Dynamics of the later barbarian invasions.

**athanaric** · March 04, 2013, 01:35 PM

The Rhine does make a convenient border, especially in light of the fact that there are few other natural borders east of it, and in any case, Dacia was given up too, so Germania isn't a singular case. Seems the development potential of Germania libera wasn't worth the risk and expense of having to maintain an "open border" from a Roman PoV.

Originally Posted by Menelik_I

[...] Goebels in 1939 [...]

It's Goebbels. [/Grammar Nazi mode]

**Marcus Aemilius Lepidus** · March 04, 2013, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by athanaric

The Rhine does make a convenient border, especially in light of the fact that there are few other natural borders east of it, and in any case, Dacia was given up too, so Germania isn't a singular case. Seems the development potential of Germania libera wasn't worth the risk and expense of having to maintain an "open border" from a Roman PoV.

Well the Elbe would be another good border which is one reason why they wanted the river as the border before Teutoburg, maybe further under Germanicus. In that case you had a shorter conection to the Danube Limes and for a Expansion in to Dacia you had the Carpates from Bohemia till Dacia as natural Border.

**Ritterlichvon86** · February 28, 2013, 06:33 AM

Germania was no nation until the First Reich (which included other people too as a multi"national" monarchic state), and then only again during the Second Reich over Weimarian Republic to the Third Reich. A number of people, properly described as tribes with national character, weakened and stormed the Western Roman Empire over the span of several hundreds of years.

Edit:

I almost forgot. Big thanks for the video Birk.

**Marcus Aemilius Lepidus** · February 28, 2013, 06:41 AM

Funny. They took the footage directly from this German docu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHzMVQx4GMs which was more told a movie. Funny that English people use German Material. The most time is the opposite.

In the original German docu, their is nowhere mentioned anything about a nation. Maybe they made a translation error.

**Birk** · February 28, 2013, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus Aemilius Lepidus

Funny. They took the footage directly from this German docu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHzMVQx4GMs which was more told a movie. Funny that English people use German Material. The most time is the opposite.

In the original German docu, their is nowhere mentioned anything about a nation. Maybe they made a translation error.

It's just the title. People wouldn't watch if it said "Cherusci the tribe that defeated Rome..."

**Marcus Aemilius Lepidus** · February 28, 2013, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by Birk

It's just the title. People wouldn't watch if it said "Cherusci the tribe that defeated Rome..."

Better would be to say the Germanic Tribes, which actually describes it well. I also find it allways bad that they allways only mention Teutoburg. Many forget that he fought the Romans several Years since that point. At the pontes Longi he defeated them allmost that terrible than Teutoburg again and at the Angrivarierwall, he and Germanicus had a Draw which resulted in so heavy looses that Germanicus directly retreated to the Rhine and never came back.

**Meraun** · February 28, 2013, 06:46 AM

lol Germania as a Nation^^

i quite sure late roman empire had worse losses against Sassanids.

Many different tribes and nations defeated the romans several times. nothing special about the "Germans"

**Birk** · February 28, 2013, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by Meraun

lol Germania as a Nation^^

i quite sure late roman empire had worse losses against Sassanids.

Many different tribes and nations defeated the romans several times. nothing special about the "Germans"

Did they run around half naked, selling blond hair and killing the romans with there bare fists and with clubs? I don't think so!

**Meraun** · February 28, 2013, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Birk

Did they run around half naked, selling blond hair and killing the romans with there bare fists and with clubs? I don't think so!

Well half of the continent did that.

**Der Phönix** · February 28, 2013, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by weirdoascensor

Germania's a Nation?
In 9?

Originally Posted by Ritterlichvon86

Germania was no nation until the First Reich (which included other people too as a multi"national" monarchic state), and then only again during the Second Reich over Weimarian Republic to the Third Reich. A number of people, properly described as tribes with national character, weakened and stormed the Western Roman Empire over the span of several hundreds of years.

Originally Posted by Meraun

lol Germania as a Nation^^

i quite sure late roman empire had worse losses against Sassanids.

You are confusing the term "nation" with "nation state". A nation is defined as a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history. In this definition, a nation has no physical borders.

Originally Posted by Meraun

Many different tribes and nations defeated the romans several times. nothing special about the "Germans"

Indeed, but only the Germanics defeated Rome.

**RoyalNobody** · February 28, 2013, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by Der Phönix

Indeed, but only the Germanics defeated Rome.

Except all those other peoples who defeated Rome.

**Der Phönix** · February 28, 2013, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by RoyalNobody

Except all those other peoples who defeated Rome.

So the Roman Empire was defeated more than once?

**Marcus Aemilius Lepidus** · February 28, 2013, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by RoyalNobody

Except all those other peoples who defeated Rome.

I think he thought about the fact that they not defeated rome in the meaning of some battles, they defeated rome and stayed unconquered which the Germanic Tribes have only in common with Parthia. All other peope were finally conquered.

**Jepekula** · February 28, 2013, 06:49 AM

Well, they might have used "Nation" as a collection of different tribes and peoples, not as a single, large geo-political unit of said tribes and peoples (state).

**geala** · February 28, 2013, 07:03 AM

To Arminius, it is not entirely clear wether he was made a Roman knight (Velleius told so). It is pure speculation that he served in the Roman army. He perhaps led some auxiliary troops, which were much more independent at that early date than later on.

The clades Variana has to be seen together with the later events in 15/16 AD when Germanicus tried to reconquer the Germania or at least punish Arminius and the rebellious tribes. It is astonishing that the Romans did not succeed and abandoned a territory so easily for which they had struggled hard from 12 BC onwards. It was never a "German" success because it is highly improbable that there was a common view of the several tribes as "Germans". So you should write "Nine Germanic tribes: the Peoples who Defeated Rome".