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Thread: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

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    Kanaric's Avatar Praefectus Castrorum
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    Default The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    I frequently read huffpo and Andrew Sullivan's Blogger and there was a discussion on the popes sexuality suggesting he could be gay. Of course the comments on such sites that explode from people following competing religions sick as from unreasonable illogical theists atheists claiming hypocrisy on these unfounded claims.

    As an atheist myself I think of morals and religion as well as culture in a purely logical pragmatic faction from a perfectly reasonable point of view. These people here however were claiming, as if these unfounded claims were true, that the pope is a hypocrite. My question is.... Is he?

    For a short period of time I studied world religions in college and there was never any logical conclusion from the Bible or catholicism that being gay is a sin. The sin is the act, not the thought. The physical act of laying with a man. If the pope is celibate, unless you want to continue the further evidence absent discussion and say he isn't go elsewhere, then if he is attracted to men or not is simply a strawman. Is the official church stance that thought is un catholic or, as I assume, the act? If it is the act then the pope can be gay and any claim of hypocrisy is completely unreasonable, illogical, un pragmatic, and as a result anti-atheistic and you are simply a theist trying to attack opposing religions. On the other hand if thought crime is the official position then these commentators are perfectly reasonable, though not because we are absent a modicum of evidence aside from the wet dreams of theist atheists.

    I want to know the reasonable logical straw man free point of view on the hypothetical if the pope was gay, in thought not action, would he be against church teachings. In summary my thought is no because action, not thought, is considered a sin by that particular church. Correct me if I am wrong.

    If there is any real evidence coming from logical procees that the pope is gay please post it otherwise that unreasonable fantasy position is nearly religious minded rhetoric and has no place in this thread.
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    empers's Avatar ex puro sanguine
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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    You're right about the fact that the act is a sin not the thought, just as you can think of murder but only commiting it would get you in jail. However it's highly unlikely that the pope has this thoughts and I find it nearly impossible to believe that if the pope (if he had those thoughts) would let someone notice he actually has them. But how can it be proved or disproved ? We can't read his mind...

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    Himster's Avatar Centurio Primus Pilus
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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    Coveting thy neighbor's wife is the only thought-crime I know of in the bible. It never mentions coveting thy neighbor's husband.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

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    Aeneas Veneratio's Avatar Equites Cohortales
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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Coveting thy neighbor's wife is the only thought-crime I know of in the bible. It never mentions coveting thy neighbor's husband.
    I usually just covet with the wife of my neighbour's neighbour, problem solved!
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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Coveting thy neighbor's wife is the only thought-crime I know of in the bible. It never mentions coveting thy neighbor's husband.
    Thou shall also not covet other imaginary friends...
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
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    Caledonian Rhyfelwyr's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    Quote Originally Posted by empers View Post
    You're right about the fact that the act is a sin not the thought, just as you can think of murder but only commiting it would get you in jail.
    You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment'. But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. (Matthew 5:21-22). The act is simply the fruit of sin.

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    Himster's Avatar Centurio Primus Pilus
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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment'. But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. (Matthew 5:21-22). The act is simply the fruit of sin.
    Wow, seriously?
    I was just joking when I was talking about thought-crime, I didn't really think it was such a big part of christianity. That's pretty crazy.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

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    Matthias's Avatar Banzai jūden-ki
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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Wow, seriously?
    I was just joking when I was talking about thought-crime, I didn't really think it was such a big part of christianity. That's pretty crazy.

    You think that's bad, try mixing being an 11 year old boy raised in a very Christian church that discovers :wub:. You quickly learn to rationalize away such "thought crime" as sin

    But seriously, it does screw some people up, when thoughts they really can't even control like sexual thoughts makes them feel shame or guilt or whatnot. It's a sad thing indeed, and a definite negative of religion.

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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    You think that's bad, try mixing being an 11 year old boy raised in a very Christian church that discovers :wub:. You quickly learn to rationalize away such "thought crime" as sin

    But seriously, it does screw some people up, when thoughts they really can't even control like sexual thoughts makes them feel shame or guilt or whatnot. It's a sad thing indeed, and a definite negative of religion.
    I think part of the problem is that people assume all sins are extremely damning.

    I think they need to explain things better: Not :wub: is more virtuous than :wub: because enjoying worldly pleasures are not the point of life.

    Besides, God also wants you to get laid and make more Catholics, so stop tugging and get out there and make moves.

    As to the thought crime thing, that's stupid. But I don't think Christianity in general can be salvaged in it's current form.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; February 28, 2013 at 08:36 PM.
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    Diocle's Avatar Centurio Primus Pilus
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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    Have you noticed guys the 'beautiful' young German priest (now Cardinal!!!!!!!!) always behind the Pope and always following him very closely being his personal secretary, his name is Georg or something similar..?

    .......here in Italy all the peope knows that the young Cardinal actually .....

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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Have you noticed guys the 'beautiful' young German priest (now Cardinal!!!!!!!!) always behind the Pope and always following him very closely being his personal secretary, his name is Georg or something similar..?

    .......here in Italy all the peope knows that the young Cardinal actually .....
    The German satire magazine Titanic noticed:

    "Benedict and his George. Sex! Finally!"
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Denny Crane!
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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    Did anyone actually get the original OP point? I kinda got nothing, and guessing everyone else got the same.

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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    I frequently read huffpo and Andrew Sullivan's Blogger and there was a discussion on the popes sexuality suggesting he could be gay. Of course the comments on such sites that explode from people following competing religions sick as from unreasonable illogical theists atheists claiming hypocrisy on these unfounded claims.

    As an atheist myself I think of morals and religion as well as culture in a purely logical pragmatic faction from a perfectly reasonable point of view. These people here however were claiming, as if these unfounded claims were true, that the pope is a hypocrite. My question is.... Is he?

    For a short period of time I studied world religions in college and there was never any logical conclusion from the Bible or catholicism that being gay is a sin. The sin is the act, not the thought. The physical act of laying with a man. If the pope is celibate, unless you want to continue the further evidence absent discussion and say he isn't go elsewhere, then if he is attracted to men or not is simply a strawman. Is the official church stance that thought is un catholic or, as I assume, the act? If it is the act then the pope can be gay and any claim of hypocrisy is completely unreasonable, illogical, un pragmatic, and as a result anti-atheistic and you are simply a theist trying to attack opposing religions. On the other hand if thought crime is the official position then these commentators are perfectly reasonable, though not because we are absent a modicum of evidence aside from the wet dreams of theist atheists.

    I want to know the reasonable logical straw man free point of view on the hypothetical if the pope was gay, in thought not action, would he be against church teachings. In summary my thought is no because action, not thought, is considered a sin by that particular church. Correct me if I am wrong.

    If there is any real evidence coming from logical procees that the pope is gay please post it otherwise that unreasonable fantasy position is nearly religious minded rhetoric and has no place in this thread.
    The real interesting question here is what secular people think as the Definition of being "Gay".

    Apparently being gay is a "death sentence", if you have smallest hint of every find a male figure fond you should "come out of the closet" and have your whole life defined by it. You can contrast that to the Catholic position that we make our moral choices and that whatever we are thinking the ultimate choice of taking action is of your own and that there is "redemption" as in failing your preffered moral choice can be amended by your further actions, while the "secular" position is that if you have the sightliest homosexual contact you should attend the next Gay pride even if it was 50 years ago.

    On one side you have a categorization of people based on groups and on the other you have a set of moral directives.

    But in seriousness the "suggestion" of the gayness is a just the trolling of an idiot who is smearing Pope Benedict.
    So many things go wrong in life that a sense of humor, even of the macabre type, should have been standard issue.

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Denny Crane!
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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    And who makes those suggestions and trolling? It isn't liberals, I'd suggest the type of people who are a bit to specific are people like the Catholic church.

    Certainly liberals and anyone who supports, accepts or/and understands homosexuality understands bisexuality and all the colours of the rainbow to boot.

    It seems a catholic problem comes home to roost. God bless.

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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    And who makes those suggestions and trolling? It isn't liberals, I'd suggest the type of people who are a bit to specific are people like the Catholic church.

    Certainly liberals and anyone who supports, accepts or/and understands homosexuality understands bisexuality and all the colours of the rainbow to boot.

    It seems a catholic problem comes home to roost. God bless.
    Deny could you tell me why you are not gay ? I am merely making a suggestion even thought I never met you and don't any proof, but since I am open minded I really have to ask.
    So many things go wrong in life that a sense of humor, even of the macabre type, should have been standard issue.

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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    ^ Doesn't work if Denny didn't call the Pope gay.
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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Denny Crane!
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    Default Re: The Pope: unreasonable illogical debate

    What me and the pope did doesn't count as gay.

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