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Thread: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

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    Ace_General's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    Recently, I have gotten into SCA heavy armored combat (I highly suggest anyone who is interested in swords, armor, contact sports or mideveal warfare to look into it)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwaeuufU7S4
    ^Link to a vid of the battle at Pennsic, the biggest heavy combat event with battles with 10s of thousands of guys on each side going at it

    The thing with me is I am the descendent of Silesian Nobility and we fought on the side of the Poles. What I am wondering is what type of armor would my ancestors and the Polish knights would of been wearing and what would the garb look like. I want to bring that back to life for Pennsic this august.
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    justicar5's Avatar Centurio Primus Pilus
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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat


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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    Thats a lose interpertation of 17th century era Winged Hussar gear, Im looking more Polish-Silesian early 15th century

    More specifically, what kind of Surcoats, arm, shoulder defenses and shields did they use
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    Tribunus
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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    I reckon there aren't any Poles or Polish diaspora who aren't related to your ancestor, or his servants or lord, and he probably has more non-Polih descendants than Polish ones. That far back and we're all related. White Europeans most recent common ancestor was around 1000 AD.

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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    I reckon there aren't any Poles or Polish diaspora who aren't related to your ancestor, or his servants or lord, and he probably has more non-Polih descendants than Polish ones. That far back and we're all related. White Europeans most recent common ancestor was around 1000 AD.
    Im talking my direct male line of descent. There are church records of them going back to the beginning of the counter reformation in the 1500s that show owning part of a village from that point until the Soviets came in. Now they were also bilingual German and Polish speakers and gentic tests show my male liniage is of Scandvian descent (most likely migrated to Silesia during the Viking age, early scandivian northern crusades, or were north german settlers invited by the Silesian Piasts), but Im not here to argue genetic history or ethnicity. Rather what is important was that they were full participants in the Poltical and military history of the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth. Just like in later eras they came to Serve Austria, then the Austro-Hungarian Empire then the USA, and Im equally proud of those historical identies

    But back to be on topic, what was the way the early 15th century polish knights wore their surcoats, shoulder and arm defenses
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    Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_hussars.html

    Seems to suggest 15th century Polish Hussars were light cav without metal armour, with shield and lance and mace.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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    Ace_General's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_hussars.html

    Seems to suggest 15th century Polish Hussars were light cav without metal armour, with shield and lance and mace.
    Yes, and also their was Panceri(medium calvary) and heavier armored troops, Im asking specifically about the fully armored knights.
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    Aquila SPQR's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    You can visit Grunwald Battle re-enactment site and check their gallery:

    http://www.grunwald1410.pl/index.php?cat=7

    And we can't be 100% sure, but there's very high probability that my ancestors were there too

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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila SPQR View Post
    You can visit Grunwald Battle re-enactment site and check their gallery:

    http://www.grunwald1410.pl/index.php?cat=7

    And we can't be 100% sure, but there's very high probability that my ancestors were there too
    Thanks, exactly what I was looking for

    +rep

    And given how much the polish nobility got around, its practically impossible to have ancestry between the Oder, Carpathian's and borders of modern day Russia and not be related to someone who fought in that battle

    But where you from in Poland and do you know hwat the origins of your family where?
    Last edited by Ace_General; February 26, 2013 at 04:30 PM.
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    Edelfred's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    Polish nobility ever been knights ?
    Knights were Western Europeans and at that time Pol-Lit were Eastern Europeans ,for sure .
    Real knight would never fight for infidels aganst Christian armies and Poles were exactly doing that .

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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelfred View Post
    Polish nobility ever been knights ?
    Knights were Western Europeans and at that time Pol-Lit were Eastern Europeans ,for sure .
    Real knight would never fight for infidels aganst Christian armies and Poles were exactly doing that .
    Yes real knights like Rodrigo Diaz de Vivar? A little study will reverse your opinion.

    The question is what type of armour did they wear, and "fully armoured knights in the odl style" describes heavy armoured cav of the western tradition. As Poland bordered the lands of the HRE and was exposed to their military traditions, its pretty obvious they shared in and contributed to the medieval knightly style of warfare.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    No - I have both ancestors from HRE and Poland and though Poles were from magnat and cavalry officers etc ,I can't pervert the truth .
    True knights were ended ,at least, in Bohemia. So by including Bohemia in the rooster I am prooving that I am not a Slavophobe ,but with Polish nobles -no- they were not Western knights , and if someone enjoys false imagination it not my problem
    Last edited by Edelfred; February 26, 2013 at 06:07 PM.

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    Aquila SPQR's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    But where you from in Poland and do you know hwat the origins of your family where?
    My family is from south-eastern Poland (village of Baligród was founded by them and still bears our name, but it's not a city anymore because it suffered greatly during last wars and castle well and foundation is the only thing that remains after castle was destroyed) and there are church documents about that.

    Polish nobility ever been knights ?
    Knights were Western Europeans and at that time Pol-Lit were Eastern Europeans ,for sure .
    Real knight would never fight for infidels aganst Christian armies and Poles were exactly doing that .
    Yup, imagine they were Poland is "central european" because this term fit us perfectly. It was a mix of eastern and western influence, but nobility definately preferred western "way" than eastern. And do not mention "christian values" here, because often knights did not act like "holy men". Teutonic Order for example acted like bloody and greedy conquerors who dreamed of taking Polish (christian) lands

    if someone enjoys false imagination it not my problem
    This is epic

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    Tiro
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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    Early 15th century polish men-at-arms wore mostly the standard alwhite plate armor of that period. Churburg armor. (Wisby style was also common) Here is a picture of how late 14th/early 15th century armor looked like: http://www.artizus.com/acatalog/GT017Agincourt_L.jpg

    It shows the battle of Agincourt, almost at the same time as Tannenberg/Grundwald. Google "15th century armor churburg" and you get the idea. Polish knights would for the biggest part carry another helmet, though.

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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila SPQR View Post
    My family is from south-eastern Poland (village of Baligród was founded by them and still bears our name, but it's not a city anymore because it suffered greatly during last wars and castle well and foundation is the only thing that remains after castle was destroyed) and there are church documents about that.



    Yup, imagine they were Poland is "central european" because this term fit us perfectly. It was a mix of eastern and western influence, but nobility definately preferred western "way" than eastern. And do not mention "christian values" here, because often knights did not act like "holy men". Teutonic Order for example acted like bloody and greedy conquerors who dreamed of taking Polish (christian) lands



    This is epic
    Exactly Poles show up historicaly as new power with a dishonorable ambush on Galich ,how knightly it is ?
    Then they helped pagan druids of Lithuania against Christian orders .
    Their conduct is known also by classic novels Casanova wrote bout seducing one Polish noble woman ,her father then show up with all his
    retinue to kill him .So Casanova has left the remark that the nobles in Poland are like dogs they fight by gang attacking one person . This is lol
    In Western Europe men duel one-to-one not gang-against-one.
    Russian poet Puskin also had it in 'Boris Godunov' a polish noble started insult russian boyar and he answeres- 'you only good to talk but fight one to one you don't use too you only come with 50 '. German knight were exactly opposite charging alone aganst many .
    So Casanova and Puskin is good enough proof too be together describing same bout 'honor' of those nobles.
    Knight are from Frankish Empire not Poland-Ukraine ,forget the rest .
    Last edited by Edelfred; February 26, 2013 at 06:54 PM.

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    Aquila SPQR's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    Oh, I lol'd. Your entire post is simply amusing

    I recommend some better literature on the subject than "Casanova and Pushkin" Actually Polish nobles enjoyed duels (1 vs 1) and did it quite frequently. And since this is thread about Grunwald battle - there's Dobiesław of Oleśnica, Polish knight who charged alone (no "gangbang"? ) at Teutonic forces. Earlier (1404) this knight participated in tournament organized by Ulrich von Jungingen where he managed to defeat all his enemies even though Ulrich was sending his best men one by one and entire tournament ended at about 3 AM.

    But ok, we all see that you simply have your own theory and no facts will change it.

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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    Ok even if we drop any critics and I go to compromise Late Medieval heavy cavalry in Poland were like knights but not exactly knights .
    Knighthood was an instuttion which has no relevance with Polish heavy cavalry nobles ,Neither Moors or Mameluks though many call their heavy cavalry by knights.

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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelfred View Post
    Ok even if we drop any critics and I go to compromise Late Medieval heavy cavalry in Poland were like knights but not exactly knights .
    Knighthood was an instuttion which has no relevance with Polish heavy cavalry nobles ,Neither Moors or Mameluks though many call their heavy cavalry by knights.
    Quite right, Poland did not espouse the chivalric code. The certainly did field heavy armoured cav drawn from the nobility and from a military POV that is what is meant by knights in the context. I think the German chronicles refer to them as such? Been a long time since I read about all this.

    There's a therory that "chivalric" behaviour was learned by Frankish knights from Mamelukes and other honourably behaved Islamic warriors in the crusades. IIRC the courtly code of behaviour that became a knightly ideal is espoused in persian poetry before it appears in Western Europe, so its quite possible there's an influence there.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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    Aquila SPQR's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    Quite right, Poland did not espouse the chivalric code.
    Any sources? Because he (for example) would disagree:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zawisza_Czarny

    There's also Dzierżko z Chotli who give all his villages to the monastery and went joined third crusade, Henryk Sandomierski who joined second crusade and then returned few years later to help defend Jerusalem, Jaksa Gryfita who also went on a crusade and founded few monasteries, Kazimierz Pomorski who joined fifth crusade and participated in capturing Damietta...

    The main question right now is - are your arguments based on any historic sources, or do you simply don't want to admit (because of...?) that Poles also had knights (not only heavily armoured soldiers, but heavily armoured soldeirs who followed chivalric code).

    And I think it's also quite interesting that there's a border between countries where men are courteous (like in older times) towards women and where they are not. This border in this part of Europe lies somwhere near eastern border of Poland. I think it's an echo of Polish people considering themselves part of western chivalric world and following certain rules - which were rather unknown in for example Rus.

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    Default Re: Equipment of Polish Knights at Tannenberg and SCA Heavy armored combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquila SPQR View Post
    Any sources? Because he (for example) would disagree:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zawisza_Czarny

    There's also Dzierżko z Chotli who give all his villages to the monastery and went joined third crusade, Henryk Sandomierski who joined second crusade and then returned few years later to help defend Jerusalem, Jaksa Gryfita who also went on a crusade and founded few monasteries, Kazimierz Pomorski who joined fifth crusade and participated in capturing Damietta...

    The main question right now is - are your arguments based on any historic sources, or do you simply don't want to admit (because of...?) that Poles also had knights (not only heavily armoured soldiers, but heavily armoured soldeirs who followed chivalric code).

    And I think it's also quite interesting that there's a border between countries where men are courteous (like in older times) towards women and where they are not. This border in this part of Europe lies somwhere near eastern border of Poland. I think it's an echo of Polish people considering themselves part of western chivalric world and following certain rules - which were rather unknown in for example Rus.
    Thank you for that correction, I freely admit my error.

    My opinion was based on ignorance of any medieval Polish orders of knighthood (I belive the order of the White Eagle was introduced by the Saxon King in the 18th century, IIRC St Stanislaus is even younger, is it 19th century?).

    In a broader sense Poland of course was famous for its cavalry and had an extensive nobility as well as family insignia and individuals exhibiting honour and courage, which amounts to the idea of knighthood but I was unaware of a specific knightly class in the more narrow sense recognised in Western Europe. I had thought Poland maintained its own (ancient and honourable) system of social classes, not identical to the neighbouring Niemski.

    No doubt individual Poles were knighted in service of non-Polish lords and were knights even by the most narrow definition.

    Is it fair to say Medieval Poland did not have a fully established Western European medieval chivalric system, but rather its own system of ranks and honours, and indivdidual Poles did participate in Western European Chivalry?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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