Empire Realism - Feedback and General Discussion

**JaM** · April 15, 2013, 04:02 PM

i will add it to a list for a next patch.

**GrimFear** · April 16, 2013, 01:57 AM

Jam have u removed the 18 lber horse Guard cannons for France? If so might you give France so sort of bonus for their arty to represent their heavy use of cannon on the battle field?

**JaM** · April 16, 2013, 03:17 AM

France actually have unique guns now. Early guns are similar to others, but Late tier gives you 4pdr light gun battery, 8pdr medium gun battery and 12pdr heavy gun battery. There is also 4pdr Horse Artillery and heavy 6in howitzers (France doesn't have light 12pdr howitzers available)

All other western nations late tier has 6pdr light gun battery and 12pdr heavy gun battery. These are also supplemented by 6pdr Horse Artillery and light and heavy howitzers (12pdr and 6in)

French guns are superior in all parameters to other guns, 4pdr light gun is comparable to 6pdr, while 8pdr outranges it significantly. French Late artillery is best in game.

**Mahatma Gandhi** · April 16, 2013, 03:45 AM

Okay, I must be completely full of suck or something. Twice now I've been repelled by armed populace attacking Carnatica using Sepoys and line infantry as UP. Its walled. 1st time I tried to scale it. My Sepoys lost 20 men and routed. This second time it was 2 V.O.C., 3 Line Inf, 3 Sepoys. Brought down the walls, and scaled the walls for height, and routed again. Im not completely familiar w/your mod. 1st time using it. Ive read the "unit sticky" but am I missing something w/armed populace (East Indian)? I mean I wasnt even challenged by the pirates using 4 line infantry and a single cannon. Here, its 8 professional units vs 5 armed citizens and a musketeer unit. And, these Sepoys are routing w/just like 20-30 men being lost.

I've like the other aspects so far. Im curious about a few things however;

Visually theres no cannon balls anymore. Be that in a naval fight or on land. Round or shot. Why?
Is there a Read me thread as to what all has been changed? I get the general gist of it. Diplomacy, prices, units and what not, but was curious about the rest.
I thought walled fortifications were no longer?

**JaM** · April 16, 2013, 04:03 AM

Look at unit experience. Unit with 0 experience represents rookie unit with relatively low morale so you cant expect them to fight like pros. During all sieges, defenders receives a morale bonus (if I remember correctly its +4 morale) so they fight harder as they would in open battle. Units on the walls also shoot more accurate and reload faster (this is a workaround for hardcoded unit deployment on walls where only few men actually fire - it is supposed to simulate other men to pass the musket to men firing)

And regarding cannon balls, they are still there. they are just no tracers so you can only see them if you slow the time down. Tracers were removed because they looked like Star War Lasers which killed immersion of 18.century battle...

Right now there is no full change-log present, anyway if you check this thread and the old one which is now closed, i was providing full details on features implemented during development phase. Anyway once i will have some more free time i will put these together into one big thread where you could read it at one place without having to search for it.

**Sixt** · April 16, 2013, 04:44 AM

In my Austrian campaign i still see some weird land swap offers from the AI. Example Denmark wanted hungary in a swap for Norway and a trade agreement with me, that seemed alittle unhistorical.
Also i sometimes see in battles the cannon crew of AI guns leaves their guns to make an charge with the rest of the AI forces, when they are attacking.

But otherwise im enjoying your mod...

**Mahatma Gandhi** · April 16, 2013, 06:38 AM

Alright. I will accept that answer. I subsequently beat that region. Went to Mysore. East Indian Native Cavalry 3 chevrons and a depleted (75 or so) Sepoy unit, charged Dakhil armed citizenry no chevrons and the armed citizens broke both units. Both units had flanks covered (4-5 reg troops to their left), general in area. Citizenry had lost everyone on the field but their general (1000-1100 men of various make-up).

Its all good, I won that fight pretty convincingly and had very few loses overall, but it left me scratching my head. The cav unit was at 34-35 of 50 after it broke. Honestly, I dont recall what it was before it went in, maybe 40-43 or so. I sure hope my flintlockers carry my banners w/as much passion as these inspiring citizens have been.

**JaM** · April 16, 2013, 07:21 AM

Morale/fatigue works differently in ER4.. Always check what state your unit is, and what is the state of enemy - Cavalry will get disordered quite quickly once in melee combat, and you need to give some time to recover and regain cohesion. Also enemy infantry which is in good order and high cohesion will panic less likely. So if you want to attack some infantry positions, pin them first with some unit - musketry causes a lot of disorder, being fired at reduces morale and increases disorder in ranks. Once you see enemy formation losing order (very tired/high disorder), just pure presence of cavalry might be enough to rout them. But this wont work against fresh units. each disorder level reduces morale a bit, with "disordered" level reducing morale quite a lot. (it -4 for heavy disorder and -8 for disordered) Cavalry presence generates "fear" penalty to infantry (-4), which means if these effects combine together, unit like Citizens would just break without fight. And cavalry is incredibly effective chasing down fleeing infantry now...

edit: forgot to mention, being shot at reduces morale quite a lot, so if you manage to shoot at enemy with muskets and artillery you can reduce their morale quite fast.. Artillery should be used to dent defensive lines, and prepare your attacks, not to actually destroy units. combined arms tactics works quite well ..

**Dandelion** · April 16, 2013, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Mahatma Gandhi

East Indian Native Cavalry 3 chevrons and a depleted (75 or so) Sepoy unit, charged Dakhil armed citizenry no chevrons and the armed citizens broke both units.

When I captured Ceylon (playing Maratha..) I had several units of V.O.C. Cavalry coming for my troops.. they managed to evade the artillery and went after a few of my Hindu Musketeers (unexperienced, Morale 3).
By micromanaging my units, I managed to let my guys fire the first salvo when the cavalry already was in 1/3 of the effective range... None of the three charging cavalry units even reached close combat range..

Cavalry works perfectly against pinned units or if they manage to attack from a flank. When they charge in from the front, the target unit has to be very tired/disordered to make that charge a success ^^

And yes, sometimes it's enough for a hidden cavalry unit to come out at the flank of an already pinned enemy unit to make them (the pinned unit..) rout.

**Mahatma Gandhi** · April 17, 2013, 06:54 AM

Its a like/dislike thing so far. I've enjoyed many aspects of your mod. I like the tech tree, the economics so far, which puts a real throttle hold on rampant stacks of armies all over the place (for the most part). I like the battle AI generally speaking, although the lack of accuracy is rather annoying. 8 ponies attacking 450 firing muskets and only 2 die is rather hard to swallow. Not once mind you, but twice. I actually said outloud "Yeah, I'd charge too if I was facing these guys."

My encounter tonight was;
New French campaign. Turn 2 UP declares on Spain. UP (5 units)attacks Flanders. Repulsed combined defense Spain-France. I pursue towards Amsterdam. AI moves a 4 unit group out of Amsterdam, plus the 3 that retreated. I attack, victory over the 2 reinforcing groups. No-one in Amsterdam, both retreating units too far to defend. I move to Amsterdam. BAM !!! 9 or 10 Line Infantry in defense.

okay, thats a pretty neat trick. So um.. yeah?

At the same time, I had the southern French army on the Savoy border and figured what the hey, lets see what happens. Savoy had moved its army out as well. I attacked. Defeated the visual Savoy army. 3 units escape. Too far to defend. Move on town. BAM 8-9 Line Infantry again defending the town. Hello.

Both instances none of the previous armies were involved w/their capitol defense. It was fresh stacks of Line Infantry and all of them were full strength.

**JaM** · April 17, 2013, 07:07 AM

All garrison units that defend the cities are composed of Line infantry instead of citizen militias... Militia in Europe was nonexistent up until Napoleon, and even then European Absolutist Monarchs formed them just to have a pool of trained men for their armies... They didn't want to give arms to people,because they were afraid of revolts..

Number of Garrison depends on loyalty of population, so if it is very high, you might see 8-10 Line Battalions defending the capital city.. These units have also slightly better morale than normal line infantry because its not possible to assign experience points to garrison.

And regarding the unit accuracy - First salvo is always the most accurate. If you have unit with high experience and you wait till enemy gets close, initial salvo will produce much higher casualties... Just don't expect 0 experience unit (which represents rookies that never fired a gun) to score some huge casualties on charging cavalry which scares the ***** out of them...

**Mjarr** · April 17, 2013, 07:48 AM

Try opening fire only when cavalry is around ~½ of the range, or just before that unless the circumstances require constant shooting. That way they get to fire two volleys before contact occurs and is usually enough to break the cavalry. If it's moving slowly or diagonally you could up to 1\3rd and pew pew.

Also if the unit is understrength remnant there is also the problem of trying to hit smaller target at longer range. Side of a barn is (very) easy to hit with massed musket fire, or even with individual shot, but under pure statistical math attempting to hit small part of a fence under the same circumstances has its own difficulties. You can easily see it those odd times you see AI general slowly riding towards your line, and open fire up close with lower casualty average than full strength cavalry unit would receive in similar circumstances. Though I do agree it can be quite annoying when dealing with very small remains every now and then.

**Dandelion** · April 17, 2013, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Mahatma Gandhi

... No-one in Amsterdam, both retreating units too far to defend. I move to Amsterdam. BAM !!! 9 or 10 Line Infantry in defense.

okay, thats a pretty neat trick. So um.. yeah?

Well, JaM already explained this.. so just for the next attempt: never forget to count the little grey blips beside the town's flag.. In vanilla that was only Militia (and in India it still is ^^) but as JaM upped the defense a bit, You better bring enough men and guns. Especially guns.. and with that I mean cannons. Never leave home without them. They make life so much easier ^^

**Dandelion** · April 17, 2013, 09:48 AM

Bah.. came up with a double post.. So I use this now to brag a bit from my Maratha campaign (played on h/h) ^^

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

The current year is 1750 - and Maratha owns all of India, most of the former Persian Empire and is on the march in the Ottoman's lands and North America *cough*

The first years were a bit tough. Keeping off the Mughal horde and building a basic economy isn't that easy. It helped, that I was able to sell off Ahmadnagar to the Prussians for some money and vital techs, after I had freed it from the Mughal regime. Prussia, who I already was allied with, served as a buffer which secured one of my borders. And the military tech and money was helping my army lots!

Over the next 20 years the fight for India went on. The Mughals tried to wear me down by sending small forces of only two or three units into my territories, burning and pillaging farms and factories. I answered by sending out three large forces of 12 to 15 units, infantry, artillery and cavalry, to destroy those small raiding parties and capture one Mughal region after the other.

In 1725 India was united (apart from Mysore, which had kicked out the Portuguese in 1703 or so and the Prussina Ahmadnagar..) and I ordered my units to R&R. I offered Prussia to buy Ahmadmagar, but they weren't inclined to accept my offers. And as they were allied with the Dutch, I was able to achieve two goal with one declaration of war - a short while later Ahmadmagar and Ceylon were mine.. As Prussia was in a desperate situation, with the war against Poland not going really well, they didn't resist an offer of peace. The dutch took a while longer, but made peace too in the end.. That left my good friends and allies in Mysore.. Too bad for them, that they weren't allied to anybody else but me..

So by 1730 India was REALLY united.

And I started the long march for Persia. Without ships - apart from those four Dhows, which could be sunk by a canoe - My troops needed a while for the trip to Afghanistan. Even though I had built roads like only the Romans had before. 'twas the old artillery pieces dragging my troops down. But even the new replacements - 12 to 24 pounder - weren't any easier to transport. So a couple of years went by, before my forces reached their target.

In the meantime, the UP had evolved as the main player in Europe. After a short hazzle with the french about Flanders and the Alsace, they had gone for The Rhineland, Württemberg and even Bavaria.. Prussia had managed to expand a bit. Austria fought on two fronts against Poland and the Ottomans - who were also at war with each other.. France and Britain were fully occupied in North America, with the French winning and waltzing down from Maine to Pennsylvania..
I already had thought of giving the British some financial help, by buying Algiers or Tunis from them (which they had taken in the 1710's or so..) but "no heathen food shall tread on the sacred British soil" or so was the only answer I got.. So I just watched as french feet tread the British Colonies soil..

Then a big turn in history happened: The Dutch successfully invaded France! The french empire crumbled to dust. From Maine to Pennsylvania the 13 Colonies reappeared. And I saw a chance to expand my Empire. Getting into good relations with the new Nation of Quebec and the 13 Colonies was the first step. Next I bought Maine from the 13 Colonies, who were still in a desolate financial state, with Britain being bankrupt. And then a large amount of old metal - here: old artillery pieces, which my armies invading Persia had no use of anymore, after being refitted with modern cannons - was shipped to Maine.

So right now, native north american Indian forces, lead by a Indian General and supported by 17th century indian artillery pieces (and indian crews) go after the still rebellious regions in North America!

**Leatherneck918** · April 17, 2013, 10:04 AM

Ok well been playing this mod for a week now and here are two main things I have noticed so far.
1. Don’t know if it happens with other nations, but I'm playing Britain and Howitzers normal cannon balls has the range of 20 meters or something close to that. In other words my chain shot for my other cannons has a farther shooting range then that.

2. I have almost all infantry upgrades researched and have like 6 full armies fighting on the map. One such army has been in almost 20+ battles and has gained Zero Experience and even some units has lot experience do to losing men and being replenished with new troops. Reason is the ridicules amount of misses even at point blank range is overdone. At point blank range or what would be 5 meters or less my green British line infantry or even a one to two chevron unit should get at least 20+ kills at that range and not none or 1 enemy death. Most of the battles I have fought my men route with only Zero to two deaths or the enemy entire army starts to route with them only getting 5+ or less deaths out of 1200+ army.

**JaM** · April 17, 2013, 10:23 AM

Leatherneck918: welcome to realistic combat effects of 18.century

anyway, as mentioned here a lot - you have to watch your unit status, and control their fire. Once they become disordered, withdraw them from battle and replace them with reserves. Theyre is no point in leaving infantry firing for extended period of time, as they will just waste all their ammo and achieve nothing... instead, make enemy do that, then walk to close range and deliver one -two salvos with fresh troops... use cavalry to mop the routers.

Howitzers never actually fired solid shot the way it was done in ETW. And because its not possible to give Howitzers canister shot anyhow, i did a workaround and i replaced the solid shot with canister shot. So, shorter range is due to a fact, howitzer will fire a lot of smaller bullets causing terrible damage to nearby infantry - 12pdr howitzer uses canister as big as 12pdr heavy artillery, while heavy 6in howitzer is even more powerful...

**Mjarr** · April 17, 2013, 10:51 AM

I wonder if JaM (or someone) should write basic introduction FAQ about key concepts, changes, unit functionality etc found in ER. I get the feeling lack of documentation creates confusion even when there is perfectly rational system underneath.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Leatherneck918** · April 17, 2013, 10:58 AM

Ok I understand the Howitzers then, but I should go into more detail with the troops firing part.
I always fight with two lines of 6 to 8 line infantry. First line always makes contact with the enemy first and fires at the enemy from max distance. As that is happening I send the second line to charge to within 5 or less meters with the enemy. If done right my first line fires at the enemy and then the enemy fires at the first line. A few seconds later after the enemy fires my second line is passing the first line and by the time they get formed up the enemy line should be almost ready to fire again. So I set the first line to hold fire so they don’t accidently shoot the second line in front of them and my Second line fires at point blank range at the enemy line. Yet most units in the enemy line again get zero to max two deaths and most of the time the enemy units will just start to route. If they stay and fire again I might get in the whole battle 2 to 3 salvos with my units that are engaged with the enemy.
They’re is no point in leaving infantry firing for extended period of time, as they will just waste all their ammo and achieve nothing=Never happens, my units don’t even lose 1/8 of their ammo for the entire battle. So far have not had any units even get close to running out of ammo.

**Dandelion** · April 17, 2013, 11:37 AM