Empire Realism - Feedback and General Discussion

[Keinpferd]

Yes. that is actually my plan - i can influence the speed units can rotate on battlefield, setting it lower, so long line will be much slower to maneuver than column that would be able to maneuver much faster.

That, and you could also lay more weight on the cohesion related advantage of columns. To add to what Didz so nicely summed up: We could ask people on the street with no military training at all to form a three men wide column and march them through the city in good order. A column seems like the "natural" form of a group of people who desire to move jointly. All you have to do is follow your man in front. That helped especially people's armies of the latter half of the ETW era, like the armies of the American colonies or the French revolutionary armies. Without warrants and scholarly quotes, I'd say, columns became so fashionable in the Napoleonic era because of their simple aptitude for "natural" cohesion, even with recruits or armed citizens who are shot at for the first time in their lifes.

[JaM]

I would definitely do that, but game itself doesn't support this at all.. there is no setting that would adjust the cohesion loss of deeper formation vs line. Only thing possible is to reduce that turning rate, so line units will reform slower. Yet, AI will never do it as it doesn't have it in its scripts...


Btw, i tested few battles with the new approach, and must say i like the result. volume of fire is the same, while it makes things more tactical with adjustable length of the line for increased firepower. I still need to adjust depth of formations for different factions (French, Spanish, Swedes and Austrians will get 4 rank formation, British, Prussians and Dutch 3 ranks, Russians 5 ranks and Turks and Indians 6 or more ranks.)

[Didz]

I did some basic testing with this new approach, and must say, it didnt changed that much, for line infantry in triple line. Only possible issue would be if line infantry unit is down to single rank, yet it would still have firepower of two ranks, but with current morale settings, there is no way any unit would be still fighting with 2/3 losses, so that particular problem should not matter.

Actually contemporary accounts of Waterloo record than many allied regiments were reduced from four ranks to a single rank by the end of the battle. Suggesting that they were down to at least 25% effectives and still fighting.

[JaM]

nothing is perfect...

[JaM]

Made some changes to artillery accuracy, mostly decreasing the dispersion a bit, as default dispersion was set a bit too high. (8 -> 4) naval default dispersion will stay at 12, while i will also increase the 50% accurate range for arty to 50, so arty is a bit more accurate at range.

To actually reduce casualty rates down, i will slightly increase the spacing for men in line units, as tight spacing is no longer needed to adjust the amount of men firing. While these changes wont be too drastic, and men will still be in relatively tight formation, it will also adjust the appearance of soldiers during melee as they will now never occupy same space.

btw, i'm doing the same changes in NER as well, so you can expect both releases at the same time sometimes next week.

[JaM]

I have made some adjustments to unit spacing to both infantry and cavalry.I'm using new hybrid values, which i firstly used in R2TR, and they are quite improving the unit feels. soldiers now have much smaller hitboxes but still keep their personal space in melee or in march.

I have also adjusted movement speed to be the same as i had for NER - units now have normal march, and quick march. Yet, they will charge normal speed instead of running (as before). Exception are all melee units that use running charges.

[Didz]

I did some basic testing with this new approach, and must say, it didnt changed that much, for line infantry in triple line. Only possible issue would be if line infantry unit is down to single rank, yet it would still have firepower of two ranks, but with current morale settings, there is no way any unit would be still fighting with 2/3 losses, so that particular problem should not matter.

But what would prevent a devious player from stretching their line out to three times normal length in order to triple its normal firepower?

I would definitely do that, but game itself doesn't support this at all.. there is no setting that would adjust the cohesion loss of deeper formation vs line. Only thing possible is to reduce that turning rate, so line units will reform slower. Yet, AI will never do it as it doesn't have it in its scripts...

Can you detect when a formation is more than three ranks deep?

If so, then I would suggest that the best option is to provide units of more than four ranks deep with a morale bonus to represent better cohesion and resilience to shock. Likewise units with a front of less than ten model soldiers ought to be given a small (+30%) movement bonus to represent the easier task they have maintaining alignment, crossing obstacles and the faster march cadence of 120 ppm rather than 75 ppm used when in line.

[Destin Faroda]

But what would prevent a devious player from stretching their line out to three times normal length in order to triple its normal firepower?

A code of honour. Realism players are usually more mature and honest than the usual Steam kiddies.

[JaM]

Changes so far:

- new (old) fire drill with double bullets for normal muskets
- ammo cut in half for all muskets with double bullets
- halved accuracy of artillery, but also halved their dispersion by half. (shots go close near each other, but not as accurately on target)
- same applies to naval artillery, short range gunnery now more decisive.
- drastically reduced dispersion for coehorn mortar (it can hit something now, making it very useful to have in sieges, yet rate of fire and minimal range makes it not very useful in open battles)
- adjusted entity sizes (infantry and cavalry) for better entity collisions
- adjusted unit depth for certain factions (France, Spain, Austria, etc..)
- small adjustments to CAI (even though these are always blind attempts with ETW)
- reduced lethality for light infantry muskets from 100% to 80%
- small adjustments to some unit stats
- adjusted ship crew for various ships
- slightly reduced experience thresholds for increased experience gains for all units

if everything goes ok, should post the file in day or two. (together with NER update)

[JaM]

Can you detect when a formation is more than three ranks deep?

If so, then I would suggest that the best option is to provide units of more than four ranks deep with a morale bonus to represent better cohesion and resilience to shock. Likewise units with a front of less than ten model soldiers ought to be given a small (+30%) movement bonus to represent the easier task they have maintaining alignment, crossing obstacles and the faster march cadence of 120 ppm rather than 75 ppm used when in line.

i'm afraid that is not possible. Only thing possible is to give them lower turning speed that penalizes the line over column.

But what would prevent a devious player from stretching their line out to three times normal length in order to triple its normal firepower?

It is as DF said.. I expect realism players to play this mod because they want more realism in it. I don't expect anybody to play it just to cheat his way through. Most people still playing this game/mod do so because they like the game itself/its period. They don't play looking for shortcuts. At least i expect them not to. (i'm using such approach in all my mods, and i can tell you sometimes it is quite strange how many R2TW players cant understand it -new generation of TW players doesnt play this game because they want to be entertained, but because they want to beat the game. they look for any kind of an exploit they can get, so my approach is not very popular Yet, i don't care )

[Mjarr]

Actually contemporary accounts of Waterloo record than many allied regiments were reduced from four ranks to a single rank by the end of the battle. Suggesting that they were down to at least 25% effectives and still fighting.

To be fair, that is somewhat possible in ER although not exactly usual sight. If you have good general with sufficient morale boosts, preferably xp2+ on the unit in question and it has not suffered a morale shock, it is not impossible to see unit with 2\3rds of manpower lost and they are still contributing to the battle. Just unlikely.

[JaM]

ok guys, let me know if there is anything i should be checking. (and it is not mentioned in change log)

[JaM]

version 4.6 can be downloaded from main download thread. (mediafire link)

[JaM]

dmn. After some playing with new setup i discovered a strange thing - "can skirmish" ability makes units tire from firing much faster than normal single rank volley fire. It kinda makes sense, as with volley fire only single rank fires, which means majority of unit is in idle, while with "can Skirmish" they all are firing therefore no "idle" bonus is added. This greatly impacts the combat model, and i think i will have to rework it back to old setup, unless i figure out way around it.

[Destin Faroda]

dmn. After some playing with new setup i discovered a strange thing - "can skirmish" ability makes units tire from firing much faster than normal single rank volley fire. It kinda makes sense, as with volley fire only single rank fires, which means majority of unit is in idle, while with "can Skirmish" they all are firing therefore no "idle" bonus is added. This greatly impacts the combat model, and i think i will have to rework it back to old setup, unless i figure out way around it.

What about fatigue resistancy for light infantry? That could work.

[JaM]

i tried to set huge numbers there, but no change... i even set the -100000000000000000000 as a value, which should be the maximum value accepted by the PFM... and still no luck.

[JaM]

ok, so with this in place, i decided to adjust it a bit.. instead of massive drop in accuracy, it will be 50% drop no matter what order state unit is in. Yet, i will slightly increase the accuracy difference between skirmishers and line infantry so even with 50% drop, skirmishers will be still relatively effective. Only downside of this is that first skirmisher salvo will be a bit stronger than it should be, but at the other side, it will allow player and AI to make traps better (get close to enemy without him noticing, and open fire from close range to cause maximum damage)

[Destin Faroda]

i tried to set huge numbers there, but no change... i even set the -100000000000000000000 as a value, which should be the maximum value accepted by the PFM... and still no luck.

Probably another bug or a hardcoded "feature". In Shougun II, units that are in pike wall formation won't restore stamina despite standing still and changing the tight formation value to a negative number.

[JaM]

btw guys, i have also updated NER to new version recently, with some major changes.

[poa]

is it possible to increase attack/melee value for deep formation vs thin formations ?