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Thread: Spring and Autumn of the Sixteen Kingdoms - 4th century mod project

  1. #21

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Hey people, it's me again. This is the base of the map I built. Give it a look and share your thoughts



    ~~
    Also, I updated the OP;
    Last edited by Yayattasa; April 20, 2013 at 08:19 PM.


  2. #22
    Razor's Avatar Licenced to insult
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    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    Hey people, it's me again. This is the base of the map I built. Give it a look and share your thoughts



    ~~
    Also, I updated the OP;
    1) This is strictly my personal opinion, but I've never been fond of certain map projections, and this is one of them. It feels as if the landmass is bent upwards at the sides. Now you could argue which map projection is the most accurate or more appropriate, but for Total War games I always prefer a rectangular projection such as the Miller projection.
    2) You'd also have to think about where you want to cut the map. In your base map I see various isolated seas and landmass that are cut off from bigger parts of which they're a part of. One cannot sail from the Mediterranean Sea to the Atlantic Ocean. The landmass of Iran has been cut on the southern edges. The Bay of Bengal is isolated as well as several other seas and landmass in the east like Indochina, China and the Korean peninsula. Try to have as much natural boundaries as possible, or (political ones that fit the period) and avoid isolated and cut off seas and landmass as much as possible.

    It's not a map I would be very happy with and personally the map feels a bit estranging because of the map projection.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Oh well, I opted for that projection because I really wanted to cut India and Indochina off.
    This projection is actually an equal area projection.
    I will try to give a look at some other projections and see if I can fit everything I want in (by looking at the factions you can have an idea of what I'm looking for).
    Last edited by Yayattasa; April 21, 2013 at 08:12 AM.


  4. #24

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    I'm thinking of moving the starting date to the 4th century. Maybe around 300AD.
    Do someone know which rebellions took place in the Roman Empire at the time?


  5. #25
    Razor's Avatar Licenced to insult
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    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    I know that in Egypt there was an usurper in the very early 300s IIRC and in the 280s and 290s you had Carausius and Allectus in Britain and Northern Gaul.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    270AD seems like a good starting date, what do you think?
    (I'm basing my assumption of this, really: http://geacron.com/en/?v=m&lang=en&z...rp=0&re=0&nv=2)

    Also reading this wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...he_3rd_century
    Last edited by Yayattasa; May 10, 2013 at 02:55 PM.


  7. #27
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Problem with that map is that you include more land in the steppes, siberia and Africa then are necessary. The action is in Europe and the ME... but you have this huge landmass to the north.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Well if I made a rectangle covering the main scenarios (europe, ME and china) it would be really (and I mean really) thin.
    The steppes, siberia and sahara would be really few regions, or even mostly unreachable.

    ~~~~

    Using Eras Total Conquest map as an example, this is how it would like (note the factions are his factions, not mine)



    Using the map this way maybe I could add some Indian faction.
    Last edited by Yayattasa; May 12, 2013 at 10:58 AM.


  9. #29

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    270AD seems like a good starting date, what do you think?
    Depends on the situation in the far east. I have not much knowledge about Chinese history. Was China also split in various rivaling dynasties in the 3rd century similar to Rome? Or do you prefer an era where both Empires are intact in large parts? As the map is large enough even united Empires might work without much problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    Well if I made a rectangle covering the main scenarios (europe, ME and china) it would be really (and I mean really) thin.
    Maybe still not perfect, but much better and offering more "fertile" areas than your first version. Plus it has natural borders due to showing whole Arabia, India, Korea or South-East Asia (except Malaysia).

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    15 - Goths (Gothi/Gutans)
    16 - Vandals (Vandali)
    17 - Saxons (Saxones/Sahson)
    18 - Angles (Anglii)
    19 - Lombards (Longobardi)
    20 - Frisians (Frisi)
    21 - Suebi
    You have to think about balance and gameplay-reasons also. Saxons, Angles and Frisians occupy nearly the same area (and have the same goal with plundering Britain) considering the huge scope of your project. You need factions to fill India (and the Kushan Empire separating it from Persia and the Tarim-Bassin), South-East Asia (e.g. Champa and Funan) and give the chinese factions an enemy in the east (Goguryeo as largest Korean faction, Silla might be too much considering there are only 30 faction slots)

  10. #30

    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Hey Xerrop, thanks for your feed back!

    In 270AD China was divided under the Western Jin (Xi Jin) dynasty and the last Three Kingdoms dynasty, the Eastern Wu (Sun Wu).
    By 280AD China was unified under the Jin.

    About the european tribes, I'm trying to solve the issue by asking the guys over Invasio Barbarorum II.

    Also, keep in mind I'm probably going to move the starting date (270AD was a good year thanks to the rebellions in the Roman Empire, but other starting dates are also plausible). The problem is, if we move into the 4th century, we may fall in the 16 Kingdoms period in China (that would add some more factions).

    Goguryeo is a must if Korea is included and we need a nomadic tribe to control the steppes over China (I was thinking about the Xianbei, that later, by 330ad would form the Rouram Khaganate, and also had major involvement with the 16 kingdoms, having founded some of those).
    The Xiongnu are still present in major parts of China.

    ~~~~~~

    What do you think about moving the starting date to 363 AD (just like Barbarian Invasion)?
    We would have for sure:

    - Imperium Romanum
    - Saxoni
    - Vandali
    - Ostrogothi
    - Visigothi
    - Alani
    - Huni
    - Suebi
    - Gupta Dynasty
    - Sassanid Dynasty
    - Eastern Jin
    - Goguryeo
    - Ghassanids
    - Lakhmids
    - Picts

    Maybe:
    - Saka

    About the 16 Kingdoms, by 363AD we have:
    - Former Qin
    - Former Yan
    - Former Liang
    But they all are on their brink of existence, so we could opt for kingdoms yet to come instead.


    Other than the 16 Kingdoms, by 363AD we also had the Dai (310~376, a state by the Xianbei clan Tuoba) and the Chouchi (of the Di ethnicity).

    The big problem with the 16 Kingdoms (mainly the ones founded by Wu Hu, namely the Xiongnu, Xianbei, Jie, Qiang and Di peoples) is that most were all short lived. Maybe they could be represented altogether by rebels.

    ~~~~~~~~

    So, here is a summary of the 16 Kingdoms:
    Han Zhao (304-329) (Sinicized Xiongnu)
    Xia (407-421) (Xiongnu/Xianbei)
    Western Qin (387-431) (Xianbei)
    Later Qin (384-417) (Qiang)
    Former Qin (351-394) (Di)
    Southern Yan (398-410) (Xianbei)
    Northern Yan (407-436) (Han)
    Later Yan (384-409) (Xianbei)
    Former Yan (337-370) (Xianbei)
    Southern Liang (397-414) (Xianbei)
    Western Liang (400-421) (Han)
    Northern Liang (397-442) (Xiongnu)
    Later Liang (387-403) (Di)
    Former Liang (320-376) (Han)
    Cheng Han (304-347) (Ba/Di)
    Later Zhao (319-351) (Jie)
    There were other states by these same people out of northern China, tough. Also, keep in mind several of these were vassal to bigger states.

    ~~~~

    I found six maps about the period in wikipedia:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Kingdoms_1.png
    Light Yellow - Former Liang
    Green - Former Zhao
    Pink - Cheng Han
    Yellow - Eastern Jin Dynasty
    (circa 320AD)


    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Kingdoms_2.png
    Pink - Cheng Han
    Green - Later Zhao
    Light Yellow - Former Liang
    Yellow - Eastern Jin Dynasty

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Kingdoms_3.png
    Greyish Blue - Former Yan
    Pink - Former Qin
    Yellow - Eastern Jin Dynasty

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Kingdoms_4.png
    Pink - Former Qin
    Yellow - Eastern Jin Dynasty

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Kingdoms_5.png
    Pink - Former Qin
    Yellow - Eastern Jin Dynasty
    (circa 370AD)

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Kingdoms_6.png
    Yellow - Eastern Jin Dynasty
    Grey - Later Yan
    Green - Later Qin
    Pink - Later Liang
    Light Blue - Western Qin
    Purple - Western Yan
    (circa 390AD)

    ~~~~

    There's also this other one:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Yayattasa; May 19, 2013 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Translating the names in the maps


  11. #31
    Laetus
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    Default Re: Hypothetical 3rd century mod

    Looking forward to play this mod! Good luck!

  12. #32

    Default Re: [XZTL] XIU ZHI TI LI - 4th century mod project

    Okay, so now I have a clearer view about what I'm going to do (you probably noticed I changed the thread title). The mod will probably start small, but let's see if it can gather some speed

    So, yeah, I diminished the scope of the mod (for now, at least). But I still have some thing in mind, let's see how it will proceed.

    And, last but not least, I'm already working on a map. Initially, it will include everything from India to Korea, but I'll certainly cut it down.


  13. #33

    Default Re: [XZTLG] XIU ZHI TI LI GANG - 4th century mod project

    Hello, I found a good read: GRAFF, David. Medieval Chinese Warfare: 300-900. Preview available at: http://books.google.com.br/books?id=...page&q&f=false

    ~~~~

    So, the chinese had mounted crossbowmen (that reloaded using both feet, sitting sideways on the saddle).
    Last edited by Yayattasa; May 30, 2013 at 11:09 PM.


  14. #34

    Default Re: Spring and Autumn of the Sixteen Kingdoms - 4th century mod project

    So I'm making some progress! I thought this deserved a separate post. Basically, it's the height map
    I'm not sure about the colours yet (you can clearly see three height levels, I think I should go for a more homogenous map) but, at least for me, it looking good haha

    Give it a look (I kept the website at the upper right corner because it really deserves it's credits! Also, I would like to thank Gigantus for his invaluable mapping tutorials!)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  15. #35

    Default Re: Spring and Autumn of the Sixteen Kingdoms - 4th century mod project

    Hmm...Once there is a RTW mod about 5th century..but dead....and you can find some interest thing from this mod...
    and...In 4-5th century the coast and river maybe different from nowadays..so..you must pay attention to this
    Last edited by againster; June 09, 2013 at 10:55 PM.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Spring and Autumn of the Sixteen Kingdoms - 4th century mod project

    Quote Originally Posted by againster View Post
    In 4-5th century the coast and river maybe different from nowadays..so..you must pay attention to this
    Yep, you are right! Thanks for reminding me, had completely forgotten about this
    I'll need to look up the map_features again...


  17. #37
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Spring and Autumn of the Sixteen Kingdoms - 4th century mod project

    Remember to include Ethiopia. There were four great powers in Late Antiquity: Rome, Ethiopia, Persia, and China.
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
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  18. #38

    Default Re: Spring and Autumn of the Sixteen Kingdoms - 4th century mod project

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Remember to include Ethiopia. There were four great powers in Late Antiquity: Rome, Ethiopia, Persia, and China.
    Well, I changed the scope of the mod
    Now it's centered only on chinese affairs. I would have added Ethiopia, though... maybe they could appear right at Jiankang?


  19. #39
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Spring and Autumn of the Sixteen Kingdoms - 4th century mod project

    Assuming you have enough space for the factions, maybe you could have some diplomats and merchants with a few ambassador generals and their body guards and the ability for Ethiopian mercenaries to be recruited in the region. Jiankang was probably the most cosmopolitan city in the world and if smaller than Rome at it's height they're in the same league of pre modern mega cities. Obviously you could do the same with Romans, Persians, and so forth. It shouldn't be implausible to round up a few hundred Roman Mercenaries far from home in a city like Jiankang. The Roman soldiers had some control over Sub Saharan African trade routes in North Africa and Erythean Sea trade in Egypt and Trans-Eurasian trade at least as far as Persia if not through it. Given the massive amount of gold flowing to China from Rome and Silk flowing to Rome from China I assume it wasn't all middle men. There must have been Roman ex patriot communities in China and vice versa. We just don't have records of them. I know the Chinese and Persians had substantial embassies in their respective countries.

    It'd be neat to see a few good hard drinking hoary ex Comitatenses cracking some skulls in a divided China.

    I always thought this would be the ideal era for a China focused TW game (other than the 20th century's warlord period) but it seemed very complicated so I can guess that's why it hasn't been covered yet by a mod.
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  20. #40

    Default Re: Spring and Autumn of the Sixteen Kingdoms - 4th century mod project

    Haha, I think ethipian mercernaries are a bit too far from the area. If you look at the map in the OP, you will see the areas covered.
    I think turkic, mongolian, japanese, korean and viet mercenaries are to be included, though.


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