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Thread: What's so bad about socialism?

  1. #101
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    Unless there are no other jobs to find, you know, like when you can't get unemployment down? Also, the "start a business himself" line is just hilarious.
    A business doesn't have to be a company. You can cook on streets, or sell fruit, or make jokes (yeah there is an american who's doing this!) Or do the jobs that no native worker is willing to do.

    If all options fail and you cannot find any method to sustain yourself, why live at all? Or why should others help you when you cannot offer anything in return?

  2. #102
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by aqd View Post
    A business doesn't have to be a company. You can cook on streets, or sell fruit, or make jokes (yeah there is an american who's doing this!) Or do the jobs that no native worker is willing to do.

    If all options fail and you cannot find any method to sustain yourself, why live at all? Or why should others help you when you cannot offer anything in return?
    Because they're humans.
    "Oh he's handicapped! Why does he even live at all?"
    You have to realize that not everyone has as much money or is as intelligent or educated as you.
    That doesn't mean they don't deserve to live, be happy and do things.
    Of course it's better if they were able to support themselves but that doesn't mean that if they can't you just let them die.

    You don't always have to get something in return.
    "I made you laugh. That's two dollars by the way."
    You realize that this is just ridiculous.
    Why can't you just help others to be nice?

  3. #103
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    Except it is an actual term.
    It's still oxymoronic.


    What an incredibly loaded question. There are a lot of reasons for unemployment. What I think you are trying to get at is that lower wages would me no unemployment? Like, if we only have to pay workers a nickle everyone would hire workers...but then the workers would all die cause they can't live off a nickle a day. Minimum wage is already really difficult to get by on.
    I'm pretty sure I said welfare would be reasonable if employers were otherwise left to their own devices.

    If people are able to contract freely I don't see a problem with an equitable distribution of benefits to people who do not meet tolerable standards of living.

    If you work 40+ hours a week for 2 dollars an hour, you're now producing goods competitively in a world economy. Then your money will go further on American goods and the government can cover the rest within reason because the competitiveness will mean industries will be willing to operate in your system and thus pay taxes. If taxes are low people of all income levels will have more money to spend and people will be willing to keep their money in the country and thus subject to taxes, and all that good stuff.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; February 28, 2013 at 09:01 AM.
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  4. #104
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krylos View Post
    Because they're humans.
    "Oh he's handicapped! Why does he even live at all?"
    You have to realize that not everyone has as much money or is as intelligent or educated as you.
    That doesn't mean they don't deserve to live, be happy and do things.
    Of course it's better if they were able to support themselves but that doesn't mean that if they can't you just let them die.

    You don't always have to get something in return.
    "I made you laugh. That's two dollars by the way."
    You realize that this is just ridiculous.
    Why can't you just help others to be nice?
    An individual can. But socialism is not charity. It requires everyone to help those unfortunate guys - many of them are not even nice people. The government or the society has no right to ask that.

  5. #105
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    If you work 40+ hours a week for 2 dollars an hour, you're now producing goods competitively in a world economy.
    If a job isn't even worth the minimum wage, then why should we have the job at all?
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  6. #106
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by aqd View Post
    If all options fail and you cannot find any method to sustain yourself, why live at all? Or why should others help you when you cannot offer anything in return?
    Are you saying we should let people rot if they can't sustain themselves? You know, this is just fascist. Please stop rating people according to their economic succes, and start realizing that you don't live in a society on your own.
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  7. #107
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    It's still oxymoronic.
    ...It doesn't mean literal slavery with wages, it is its own term with its own meaning. It is actually pretty close to slavery with wages, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    I'm pretty sure I said welfare would be reasonable if employers were otherwise left to their own devices.

    If people are able to contract freely I don't see a problem with an equitable distribution of benefits to people who do not meet tolerable standards of living.

    If you work 40+ hours a week for 2 dollars an hour, you're now producing goods competitively in a world economy. Then your money will go further on American goods and the government can cover the rest within reason because the competitiveness will mean industries will be willing to operate in your system and thus pay taxes. If taxes are low people of all income levels will have more money to spend and people will be willing to keep their money in the country and thus subject to taxes, and all that good stuff.
    I don't know how you would get workers to do that, however. With such little of their income coming from the job they are actually doing, I don't know how you would convince people to do those jobs. Not to mention it is still as much as a slap in the face to capitalism as anything else suggested, you are claiming that market equilibrium wages are not really enough to live on (which shouldn't happen in capitalism).
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  8. #108
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by xcorps View Post
    But it's not just a question of $Xincome vs $Yincome. A single mother of 2 making 10$ an hour on a 40 hour week will exceed the actual dollar amount of income that she would get if she were on welfare. However, not being on welfare means she has to buy her own food, pay for her own baby sitter while she's at work, and pay her own utilities. She will have less disposable income and certainly less "free time" than if the state paid for her food, her baby sitters, her rent, her utilities, and provided her with a cash stipend.
    That's the real situation. The state takes care of the cost of living. Since living beyond that standard isn't easy, why bother? If I were a minimum wage earner with 2 kids, I wouldn't even consider trying to find a job.
    Which is EXACTLY why the minimum wage is the problem. IF this single mom was just to try to live on a minimum wage, there is NO WAY she could do so without living in poverty. Having halfway adequate child care (especially when they are babies) is exceedingly expensive while she is working, and that alone would make it impossible to not live in poverty.

    Not to mention, you don't seem to realize that "not being on welfare" doesn't mean the mom can't or won't qualify for all sorts of other state services, like food stamps or help with utilities, services that she will realistically need if her and her children are to not live in poverty.

    $10 an hour isn't the national minimum wage, so not sure why you are using that. In some places, it may be, but the cost of living is also a lot higher often enough. Unless you are arguing the minimum wage should be increased... which is exactly what it seems to be you are arguing with this logic. The current minimum wage is 7.25.

    The single mom WILL be living in poverty on those wages, which also means her children will be, and all the negative things that happens as a result of that. The solution is not lowering welfare, it is increasing the minimum wage. If a minimum wage job pays substantially better than welfare so you aren't going to live in desperate poverty, then that makes a lot more sense to take the job. Minimum wage jobs ARE subsidized by the government at that rate, where the person can't even properly care for themselves, much less their children.

    If your solution is to get rid of welfare and keep poverty wages, all you'll have are a whole lot more people living in poverty, which besdies being morally disgusting, is incredibly damaging to our society, extremely ineffecient etc. etc. Higher minimum wages are the solution if you want incentives to get off of welfare, though of course the much bigger issue is ending extreme, concentrated, cyclical poverty, which nobody is addressing right now in Washington or even mentioning, as though it were a natural occurance that can't be dealt with. The reality is that we created the concentrated poverty we have now, historical facts show that to be true. Federally/state/locally mandated segregation/discrimination of the past and entrenched power today means we live in a society that perpetuates unequal opportunities that keeps poverty around and cyclical.

  9. #109
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    The reality is that we created the concentrated poverty we have now, historical facts show that to be true. Federally/state/locally mandated segregation/discrimination of the past and entrenched power today means we live in a society that perpetuates unequal opportunities that keeps poverty around and cyclical.

    This is extremely well-said.

  10. #110
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    ...It doesn't mean literal slavery with wages, it is its own term with its own meaning. It is actually pretty close to slavery with wages, though.
    Maybe.


    I don't know how you would get workers to do that, however. With such little of their income coming from the job they are actually doing, I don't know how you would convince people to do those jobs. Not to mention it is still as much as a slap in the face to capitalism as anything else suggested, you are claiming that market equilibrium wages are not really enough to live on (which shouldn't happen in capitalism).
    Of course the market equilibrium wages will be enough to live on. Once enough people die from not having enough to live on/working themselves to premature death.

    However that's not an easy sell to people.

    Switching an entire society to pure capitalism is like switching to communism. I'm not interested in making a "Great Leap Forward."
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; February 28, 2013 at 08:21 PM.
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  11. #111
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Which is EXACTLY why the minimum wage is the problem. IF this single mom was just to try to live on a minimum wage, there is NO WAY she could do so without living in poverty. Having halfway adequate child care (especially when they are babies) is exceedingly expensive while she is working, and that alone would make it impossible to not live in poverty.

    Not to mention, you don't seem to realize that "not being on welfare" doesn't mean the mom can't or won't qualify for all sorts of other state services, like food stamps or help with utilities, services that she will realistically need if her and her children are to not live in poverty.

    $10 an hour isn't the national minimum wage, so not sure why you are using that. In some places, it may be, but the cost of living is also a lot higher often enough. Unless you are arguing the minimum wage should be increased... which is exactly what it seems to be you are arguing with this logic. The current minimum wage is 7.25.

    The single mom WILL be living in poverty on those wages, which also means her children will be, and all the negative things that happens as a result of that. The solution is not lowering welfare, it is increasing the minimum wage. If a minimum wage job pays substantially better than welfare so you aren't going to live in desperate poverty, then that makes a lot more sense to take the job. Minimum wage jobs ARE subsidized by the government at that rate, where the person can't even properly care for themselves, much less their children.

    If your solution is to get rid of welfare and keep poverty wages, all you'll have are a whole lot more people living in poverty, which besdies being morally disgusting, is incredibly damaging to our society, extremely ineffecient etc. etc. Higher minimum wages are the solution if you want incentives to get off of welfare, though of course the much bigger issue is ending extreme, concentrated, cyclical poverty, which nobody is addressing right now in Washington or even mentioning, as though it were a natural occurance that can't be dealt with. The reality is that we created the concentrated poverty we have now, historical facts show that to be true. Federally/state/locally mandated segregation/discrimination of the past and entrenched power today means we live in a society that perpetuates unequal opportunities that keeps poverty around and cyclical.
    The solution isn't government accounting. It's personal accountability, starting in the education system at the K-6 levels. Minimum wage isn't a solution. The distribution of funds toward schooling guarantees that schools that need the least get the most and creates a cycle where impoverish areas (especially urban) have the smallest amount of funding and the poorest educator performances. You get what you pay for. The cycle perpetuates itself by releasing only 53% of urban students with no diploma compared to only 23% in non urban schools. (America Promise Alliance, 2005, no link.) Federal reporting rates claim that the graduation rates are significantly higher, but they are heavily influenced by poor data collection and inclusion of non High School Diplomas like trade school certs and GED's in it's results. Not really a surprise. By following data agreed upon by state governers, we find that Indianapolis has only 30% of it's freshman graduating with a diploma in 4 years. That's ludicrous.

    Our education system is fundamentally flawed. It's too heavily influenced by federal dollars and an absurd federal law, too heavily influenced by unions, administrators, and bureaucracy. The school year should be extended, the school day extended, standards for passing should be raised, laws concerning truancy enforced, and student performance measured for what it is instead of how it affects funding.
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  12. #112
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    I believe doing a job should be enough to make at least the cost of living. Therefore, a minimum wage is necessary.
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  13. #113
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by aqd View Post
    If all options fail and you cannot find any method to sustain yourself, why live at all? Or why should others help you when you cannot offer anything in return?
    Since when is a person's value tied to what they contribute to the economy? Why don't just go full Nazi and start euthanizing the disabled?

  14. #114
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lupus Wolfram Tungsten View Post
    I believe doing a job should be enough to make at least the cost of living. Therefore, a minimum wage is necessary.


    Cost of living? What's that? Place to live, some clothes, some food. None of which actually require an income. People lived for thousands of years on gift economics and barter. Some people still do. You mean some abstract criteria of what defines a cost of living at an acceptable standard.

    A domicile with running water and electricity, internet and cable access, heating and AC, refridgerated food containers, multiple rooms for privacy, a vehicle, insurance, cell phone, house phone, mp3 player....
    Right?

    Keep raising the standard you find acceptable so you have to keep raising the minimum wage and keep redefining poverty. Until the true meaning of poverty is gone. Like now. When a government subsidizes its citizens COMFORTS and WANTS instead of their NEEDS.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  15. #115
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by xcorps View Post
    Cost of living? What's that? Place to live, some clothes, some food. None of which actually require an income. People lived for thousands of years on gift economics and barter. Some people still do. You mean some abstract criteria of what defines a cost of living at an acceptable standard.

    A domicile with running water and electricity, internet and cable access, heating and AC, refridgerated food containers, multiple rooms for privacy, a vehicle, insurance, cell phone, house phone, mp3 player....
    Right?
    Agreed.

    Keep raising the standard you find acceptable so you have to keep raising the minimum wage and keep redefining poverty. Until the true meaning of poverty is gone. Like now. When a government subsidizes its citizens COMFORTS and WANTS instead of their NEEDS.
    Setting a minimum wage does not equal subsidizing citizens. Also, a house, heating, a vehicle, insurance, etc. etc. are not comforts but needs.
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  16. #116
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Shelter is a need, and it does not necessarily have to take the form of a house. You could have apartments or whatever. A vehicle is most definitely a comfort. Just because you don't like riding the bus or trains or getting a cab does not make personal transportation a necessity. Insurance, again, not a need. Certainly a comfort. Would life be more difficult/risky without it? Absolutely. Would life stop without it? Not a chance.
    Last edited by Lazarus; March 02, 2013 at 08:56 PM.
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    No, what I was getting at as that, despite having free trade, their livings standards have decreased, no increased.


    This is always a point left out by Libertarians; they seem to believe firms are more trustworthy than the government and can't for the life of me figure out why. The government is the same as a firm (conceptually speaking here) except the input, you know, what motivates them. A firm you give money based on what you want, if you have more money to spend you have more power to influence what you want. In a democratic government, each person gets a vote and that is it, the limit is the same for everybody. Now, you can influence government through other ways but the principle remains the same.
    I'm sorry, but that is incredibly naive. Money is just as effective in influencing government policy, and far more dangerous since the government has a monopoly on violence.

  18. #118
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    Since when is a person's value tied to what they contribute to the economy? Why don't just go full Nazi and start euthanizing the disabled?
    It has nothing to do with contribution or value of any kind. You pay for your own lives. Or make a farm and grow everything yourself. Or starve.


    Sounds cruel? yes of course, but it's better than having people to believe that they're entitled to live on others' cost. What have they done that earn them the right to live at the expense of others?

    If you cannot bear to watch the cruelty of real world, you can always help them by your own money. But don't ask your neighbor to do the same. Others don't owe the disabled anything.
    Last edited by AqD; March 03, 2013 at 08:12 AM.

  19. #119
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
    Shelter is a need, and it does not necessarily have to take the form of a house. You could have apartments or whatever. A vehicle is most definitely a comfort. Just because you don't like riding the bus or trains or getting a cab does not make personal transportation a necessity.
    For some jobs, a vehicle is necessary because of their location (construction workers, people who have a job at multiple locations, etc.).

    Insurance, again, not a need. Certainly a comfort. Would life be more difficult/risky without it? Absolutely. Would life stop without it? Not a chance.
    Maybe in your country, health care is for free, but here we need an insurance.
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  20. #120
    The spartan's Avatar From silence
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by aqd View Post
    A business doesn't have to be a company. You can cook on streets, or sell fruit, or make jokes (yeah there is an american who's doing this!) Or do the jobs that no native worker is willing to do.

    If all options fail and you cannot find any method to sustain yourself, why live at all? Or why should others help you when you cannot offer anything in return?
    All businesses have a start up cost, and chances are that a person in the lower bracket doesn't have the resources to start up a business. The last line seems sociopathic and scary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nationalist_Cause View Post
    I'm sorry, but that is incredibly naive. Money is just as effective in influencing government policy, and far more dangerous since the government has a monopoly on violence.
    Money does have an impact on government (you can also thank libertarians for allowing that), but it is no where near "as effective" as influencing a business. You know, like when during elections politicians go around and spend lots of TIME and MONEY to assure that they get VOTES? Voting is a great power equalizer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Maybe.
    Well, no, not maybe. You seem to be saying that wages and slavery are mutually exclusive when they really aren't. Slaves have always had resource compensation for their work.


    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Of course the market equilibrium wages will be enough to live on. Once enough people die from not having enough to live on/working themselves to premature death.

    However that's not an easy sell to people.

    Switching an entire society to pure capitalism is like switching to communism. I'm not interested in making a "Great Leap Forward."
    Well if you get rid of minimum wages you will see a lot of incomes not being sufficient to support the livelihood of workers, and I am skeptical about how much it would lower unemployment, people just don't seem to want to start new businesses (or lend for that matter).
    Quote Originally Posted by aqd View Post
    If you cannot bear to watch the cruelty of real world, you can always help them by your own money. But don't ask your neighbor to do the same. Others don't owe the disabled anything.
    So people who are ok with watching people suffer are good and should be rewarded for it? Talk about the fall of social progress...
    Last edited by The spartan; March 03, 2013 at 12:07 PM.
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