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Thread: What's so bad about socialism?

  1. #41
    The spartan's Avatar From silence
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by D E C View Post
    Basically socialism means that one group works under coercion for another group. A.K.A. slavery.
    No, I don't think that is what socialism is at all. There is coercion in socialism like there is coercion in everything else.
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  2. #42
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    In many countries welfare is already above minimum wage, so that's exactly the way socialism works according to me - working people who can be poor or not supporting a class of people who are sometimes able but not willing to work and they have comparable or even better lifestyles than the majority of those who pay for their support.
    Another name for that is a vote pump
    Last edited by D E C; February 26, 2013 at 12:51 AM.
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  3. #43
    Matthias's Avatar Banzai jūden-ki
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Hey OP,

    Socialism is necessary for the modern developed democracy and for the modern economy. Without it, neither could exist, or wouldn't exist for long. That's why every developed nation with large modern economies implements socialism in various aspects of government and society. Pure socialism, like most pure ideologies, does have its drawbacks and has been shown hard, if not impossible to implement. But the same can be said of pure capitalism, or a pure free market. None have ever, or will ever exist.

    So socialism is good, when mixed in the right doses/areas with capitalism. The neverending argument is what that precise mix should be, and depends on a lot of values and priorities of a society.

    Could society one day adapt to be purely socialist and make it work? Maybe, but I think we are a long way off culturally/technologically from that myself, and that is quite an ideal to live up to, it may be beyond us as a species. But we may be able to push to a more socialist society, at the least. Quite a few countries have gone pretty far already.

    Socialism, as a social concept, in my own humble opinion, is a much more idealistic approach to solving problems humans face. Capitalism, as a sort of social concept and not just an economic model, is a much more cynical approach to how society should be organized to reduce the most suffering, not to solve problems humans face necessarily, since some of these problems are deemed unsolveable or not even considered by this approach.

    Capitalism, at a very base level, views more efficiency (with capitalism and free markets being the best way to get more efficiency) as always good and leading to less human suffering, and that the profit motive and free market will tend to best prioritize and fulfill human needs (or wants, though that's a significant distinction).

    This is an oversimplistic approach in a lot of ways, but capitalism really isn't a social idea in the first place, so it's not that flexible. Obviously, there are lots of ways more efficiency can raise human suffering, or even cause our extinction, as we are beginning to find out, and the free market and profit motive often times provide incentives for short term gains that cause long term losses. When the losses won't be felt by the current generation, and when so many costs cannot be quantified by the market or even taken into account (like soil degradation, air pollution, etc.), capitalism has no answer. Socialism does, and that's why there are so many mixed economies and why socialism is necessary for the modern world to exist (or to continue to exist).


    Quote Originally Posted by D E C View Post
    In many countries welfare is already above minimum wage, so that's exactly the way socialism works according to me - working people who can be poor or not supporting a class of people who are sometimes able but not willing to work and they have comparable or even better lifestyles than the majority of those who pay for their support.
    Another name for that is a vote pump
    What a ridiculous caricature of socialism. I might as well say how capitalism works according to me is that the poor are given far fewer opportunities or advantages while the wealthy are able to concentrate their power at expense of everyone else, creating an aristocracy, not a meritocracy. Certainly contains a nugget of truth.

  4. #44
    The spartan's Avatar From silence
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by D E C View Post
    In many countries welfare is already above minimum wage, so that's exactly the way socialism works according to me - working people who can be poor or not supporting a class of people who are sometimes able but not willing to work and they have comparable or even better lifestyles than the majority of those who pay for their support.
    Another name for that is a vote pump
    In which countries is this true? Also, what insanity is that? Since when is being poor in the US better than having a working class job?
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Um I didn't say that capitalism and democracy are synonymous or that capitalism has a moral side when it doesn't even try to be a moral system, while socialism is viewed as morally superior even though it doesn't even work on its own.


    In which countries is this true? Also, what insanity is that? Since when is being poor in the US better than having a working class job?
    UK. I can give you sources if you want.
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  6. #46
    The spartan's Avatar From silence
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by D E C View Post
    UK. I can give you sources if you want.
    Please do, though that doesn't quite qualify as "many countries". If the UK does have that problem, they have very poor scaling with their welfare programs. It doesn't mean welfare programs innately have that problem though.
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  7. #47
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangalore View Post
    I think you should check what Natural Selection is. Mankind has stopped being entirely subject to it quite some time ago and in general we consider societies desirable which nullify the effects of natural selection as much as possible by protecting as many individuals of a society as possible and rejects the notion of letting people die of disease or disabilities. The only ideologies who permit that have a wrong concept of natural selection and apply pseudo scientific social Darwinism to human society.
    No, that's not right. If you survive to reproduce offspring (for whatever reason, being good at hunting, having access to medicine, raping a Catholic girl who won't have an abortion) you're naturally selected. That's what it means. Period. Human society is an evolved mechanism to ensure that we do, as individuals, make babies.

    All of my ancestors were naturally selected. I assume, I'm going to be naturally selected, and I would hope my children would all be naturally selected so that some day I can be a grandfather.

    In many ways we funnel base biological instinct created from evolution within a social animal group into entirely into artificial constructs which allows us today to see all mankind as part of our social group regardless of genetic affiliation.
    Eh, I know what you mean, but I'm not sure there isn't an almost equal evolved impulse to prey on our own species.

    Class stratification is also not natural selection but the usage/abuse of our social system to offset it by making it irrelevant for people of higher class if they are capable or healthy since they managed to occupy a greater resource pool solely by merit of birth. So technically natural selection has been a non factor since the dawn of organized civilization.
    Obviously no social animals are subject to natural selection in your scientific view of nature.

    The ultimate drive of natural selection is to safeguard oneself and one's descendants from its effects so the evolution of mankind to not be bound to it is a logical conclusion.
    Nah.

    As for socialism. As usual monolithic application of a single ideology usually proves impractical. The golden/less disruptive path always seems to be a more moderate stance so while socialism as an end game has been rejected by the West, a lot of it's ideals has become mainstream goals for most people including right wing conservatives. Today it is rather radical to propose that we should let the poor starve in the streets, deny healthcare to people incapable to pay for it and the like and I would say most people would consider such radical positions asocial and immorale.
    Right. Even right wing types like myself don't want that, we want poor people to be fed by their own labor if they can do it, and we want to draw a distinction between the incapable and the unwilling (the incapable need some help, the unwilling shouldn't get any), but we still want everyone to do well. I mean as a college student not a day goes by I don't feel bad about the disparity between my spending and my earning. But there's not much I can do about it, I can't really put off college until after I work long enough at just over minimum wage to pay for it all, then do college, then go back to working, etc. I just have to accept the system I live in.

    So the entire West has hybrid systems of capitalist market economies where the state intervenes into matters to guarantee basic living conditions for everyone.
    Even though we'd collectively and thus mostly individually be better off if it wasn't run by the monolith, but by frat bro styled philanthropy. By which I mean selling admission for massive parties and donating the profits to charity, and throwing money at strippers, and insisting on paying above market value for everything, balanced by working really hard/using up your trust fund as extravagantly as possible, before working really hard because you used up your trust fund.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; February 26, 2013 at 06:01 AM.
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    No, that's not right. If you survive to reproduce offspring (for whatever reason, being good at hunting, having access to medicine, raping a Catholic girl who won't have an abortion) you're naturally selected. That's what it means. Period. Human society is an evolved mechanism to ensure that we do, as individuals, make babies.

    All of my ancestors were naturally selected. I assume, I'm going to be naturally selected, and I would hope my children would all be naturally selected so that some day I can be a grandfather.
    Not quite right anymore, birth control methods have created a low birth rate in most first world country. Not to mention advances in medecine has tilted the selection process, premature babies have a higher chance of survival, and basic vaccination allowing more people to live longer and bypass some selection hurdles. There is still a selection taking place, the natural part of it has shrunk dramatically. Even socially, the 1 child policy compounded with the pressure to have a male child will have consequences on future generation, this is man made.
    Last edited by John Doe; February 26, 2013 at 06:14 AM.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by D E C View Post
    Um I didn't say that capitalism and democracy are synonymous or that capitalism has a moral side when it doesn't even try to be a moral system, while socialism is viewed as morally superior even though it doesn't even work on its own.
    Scandinavia and PRC says "hi" .



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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Public spending in Scandinavia will be lower than that of most European countries in years to come. I can say that the socialism phase there ended in the early 90s. Um PRC's economy is definitely not growing because of socialist policies...

    That's for the Spartan I guess:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/el-gua...b_2234853.html
    http://www.hotukdeals.com/misc/lithu...ay-sun-1451004
    I'm wondering if I should say that I made an exaggeration or you can try to find something on other countries.

    People, in any case, please read more before you say anything that's not backed up
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by D E C View Post
    Public spending in Scandinavia will be lower than that of most European countries in years to come. I can say that the socialism phase there ended in the early 90s. Um PRC's economy is definitely not growing because of socialist policies...

    That's for the Spartan I guess:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/el-gua...b_2234853.html
    http://www.hotukdeals.com/misc/lithu...ay-sun-1451004
    I'm wondering if I should say that I made an exaggeration or you can try to find something on other countries.

    People, in any case, please read more before you say anything that's not backed up
    Will be? And what is that have to do with everything? Socialism has a strict budget to GDP ratio that has to be fulfilled ? Did Scandinavia out of the blue slipped from it`s place as the best place to live ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...udget_revenues

    Herr Bulgarisher I must inform you that you are using an quote from newspaper that quoted Reagan in the 70` and comparing with what a Lithuanian receiving welfare now in UK.Where should I start ? That you are equalling today`s USA welfare by what Reagan said in the 70`s about one woman , that you are equalling UK`s welfare system based on the benefits on one woman or that you are comparing different time frames?

    Overall UK is still better then USA.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Poverty_Index

    If you have a point to make then make a smart use of statistics not some random facts.

    Haben Sie verstanden Herr ?
    Last edited by ShockBlast; February 26, 2013 at 08:40 AM.



  12. #52
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Not quite right anymore, birth control methods have created a low birth rate in most first world country. Not to mention advances in medecine has tilted the selection process, premature babies have a higher chance of survival, and basic vaccination allowing more people to live longer and bypass some selection hurdles. There is still a selection taking place, the natural part of it has shrunk dramatically. Even socially, the 1 child policy compounded with the pressure to have a male child will have consequences on future generation, this is man made.
    How is man made not natural? Be ye angels? Nay we be but mammals.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast View Post
    Scandinavia and PRC says "hi" .
    Scandinavia's culturally Lutheran, so characterizing it with the implication of being "Socialism" there is kind of a misnomer IMO. You can't compare North European cultural productivity to South European cultural laziness. In terms of the business end of things it's better than the US in terms of market economics. Which gives them the ability to provide more services more effectively (although there are drawbacks to that). Canada is more like Scandinavia. The US has the opposite problems. We over burden business with absurd regulations which if enforced would make criminals of everyone, our bureaucracy is byzantine and corrupt, and we don't provide a product that makes people satisfied for what they're paying for now, so it's not really sell able to offer more stuff for more money. The US federal government spends about as much on socialism annually as the GDP of the Nordic countries combined. Of course we're borrowing more than half the money to pay for it. Don't tell anyone.

    I think we're spending over 1.5 trillion a year on "entitlements", which are socialism programs. Sweden and Norway have about 1 trillion combined and Denmark and Finland are about half a trillion combined for GDP. Iceland doesn't have a economy, so I'll ignore there minuscule 14 billion GDP. So that's about right. Don't let anyone tell you the US isn't basically Communist.

    China is an exercise in totalitarian capitalism.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; February 26, 2013 at 08:51 AM.
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    I don't understand how did this end up to be about USA now? I never said any of that. Do you think that long term unemployment benefits reduce people's incentive to work if they're about the same as minimum wage? Yes or no? I didn't decide to put Reagan quotes on anything...

    I see that you've opened wikipedia, Shockblast. You can't just say "Scandinavia and PRC say hi". Why don't you read at least the articles their on their economies?
    Last edited by D E C; February 26, 2013 at 09:00 AM.
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by D E C View Post
    I don't understand how did this end up to be about USA now? I never said any of that. Do you think that long term unemployment benefits reduce people's incentive to work if they're about the same as minimum wage? Yes or no? I didn't decide to put Reagan quotes on anything...
    And your point being what?That there should not be unemployment benefits or that it should be under the minimum wage ?

    I see that you've opened wikipedia, Shockblast. You can't just say "Scandinavia and PRC say hi". Why don't you read at least the articles their on their economies?
    Have you at least looked on those links?It`s UN data if I would have given you the PDFs that are on UN`s site you won`t open and search for the data in a million years.

    Here,those are from the UN site, download them : http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/ihdi/

    And what should I read about their economies?

    Out of curiosity what do/did you study?



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    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Because the US at least used to pride itself on being the home of laissez faire, you know, like France...



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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    How is man made not natural? Be ye angels? Nay we be but mammals.
    Well, I have a more conventional view, for me a designer babie isn't naturally selected, it's processed. I see your point though, we use different semantics.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Thanks for all the responses, guys.
    There have been some quite interesting ones.
    There generally seems to be the opinion that it's not possible to have a socialist world. But why would you hate on socialism so much for that? I mean I'd understand if you laughed and said that the idea was not realistic, but a lot of people seem to really hate on it.
    If you look at the current world you can see, that the most social countries are the ones with the best life quality (like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland). But they are also all capitalistic and rich.
    Maybe that's the solution for the future. Every single person on earth would get food, education, medical treatments and a place to live for free, but would have to work hard if they wanted to achieve more. This would keep up the dream of getting rich and successful while maintaining a fair life and (almost) equal chances for everyone.

    I think it's a really bad idea to force someone into a new system. That's why I think it's important that a transition to socialism or at least the above described social version of capitalism would have to be slow and gradual. In schools, children should learn how to be social and help others. Also, in the everyday life we should greatly encourage generosity and kindness. This might be a way to achieve a more peaceful and happy world.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Oh look! Another socialism vs. capitalism debate!

    My 29 cents:
    -I like my Iphone
    -I like my Samsung Galaxy
    -I like my self-built rig
    -I like free access to the internet
    -I don't like having to pay for school
    -I don't like uneducated people
    -I like budgies
    -I smoke cigars
    -I do not believe in liberal democracy
    -I do not believe in authoritarianism
    -I like elitism
    -Sometimes, I dream of world conquest
    -I want free money
    -I don't like money
    -I want other people to be well-off too
    -I don't want to give away my own money
    etc.....

    See the contradictions that inhere in me? Now, if you put 30 such complicated individuals into a room and let them debate over socialism and capitalism, not only will they have entirely different understandings of what it means, but also whether or not it is good or bad. The debate itself is rather futile, especially if no one agrees on a definition. It's like arguing what tastes better, a banana or an apple, without agreeing what a banana or an apple is, and without realizing that we have all grown to acquire unique tastes.





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    justicar5's Avatar Centurio Primus Pilus
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rights of the Individual View Post
    Quite frankly, Socialism is merely a stepping stone to Communism.


    With no money, there is no incentive to produce/sell anything. With no incentive to do it voluntarily, threat of force and outright violence becomes a necessity for the state to maintain control, and thus we've reached a Stalinist Communism.

    As far as racism and such goes, may I remind you that Hitler was a Socialist. The concept of racism is a subcategory of a bigger, collectivist idea that uses social divisions for power gains. It benefits the leaders in charge because they are allowed to pit the different societal groups against each-other or align them against a minority; The Communists against the Socialists in Weimar Germany, the Patriots against the Japanese Americans in WW2 era America, Germans against the Jews in Hitlers germany, ect.
    #

    No he wasn't. He killed everyone in the party who took the 'socialist' part of the name seriously. (See the Night of the Long Knives.)
    Last edited by justicar5; February 26, 2013 at 11:58 AM.

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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Not to worry, Krylos. There are actually plenty of our socialist peers in this community. The right-leaning users you have observed were likely merely more vocal. As the modern world slowly but inevitably moves towards more socialistic policies (as well more socially-free and less conservative ones) you'll begin to see more of a unified attitude among people of even different nations. The increasingly globalized free market (which is also not going away any time soon and is a fantastic force for global unity) is also contributing to this.

    You have a good head on your shoulders, a good heart, and please continue to fight the good fight. You will see success, one defeated republican (U.S.) and one aging (and slowly phased-out) dictator at a time.

    Alternatively, should you ever for some reason shift your fiscal views away from socialism but still wish to maintain your penchant for social activism and freedoms in the non-fiscal arena, you can alternatively look into libertarian parties and organizations.

    Above all else, I hope that you retain a love for and an advocacy of democracy. Also, I wish you a late welcome to TWC!
    Last edited by Dragus; February 26, 2013 at 12:08 PM.

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