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Thread: What's so bad about socialism?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    So? That does not explain why we should abandon Natural Selection.
    ...
    I think you should check what Natural Selection is. Mankind has stopped being entirely subject to it quite some time ago and in general we consider societies desirable which nullify the effects of natural selection as much as possible by protecting as many individuals of a society as possible and rejects the notion of letting people die of disease or disabilities. The only ideologies who permit that have a wrong concept of natural selection and apply pseudo scientific social Darwinism to human society.
    In many ways we funnel base biological instinct created from evolution within a social animal group into entirely into artificial constructs which allows us today to see all mankind as part of our social group regardless of genetic affiliation.

    Class stratification is also not natural selection but the usage/abuse of our social system to offset it by making it irrelevant for people of higher class if they are capable or healthy since they managed to occupy a greater resource pool solely by merit of birth. So technically natural selection has been a non factor since the dawn of organized civilization.

    The ultimate drive of natural selection is to safeguard oneself and one's descendants from its effects so the evolution of mankind to not be bound to it is a logical conclusion.


    As for socialism. As usual monolithic application of a single ideology usually proves impractical. The golden/less disruptive path always seems to be a more moderate stance so while socialism as an end game has been rejected by the West, a lot of it's ideals has become mainstream goals for most people including right wing conservatives. Today it is rather radical to propose that we should let the poor starve in the streets, deny healthcare to people incapable to pay for it and the like and I would say most people would consider such radical positions asocial and immorale.
    So the entire West has hybrid systems of capitalist market economies where the state intervenes into matters to guarantee basic living conditions for everyone.
    "Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
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  2. #22
    athanaric's Avatar Equites Alares
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    What's so bad about socialism?
    It doesn't work.


    Quote Originally Posted by Krylos View Post
    Before you start hating please accept that I'm only 15 years old and my world views are very naive.
    We have a saying here that goes "Anyone who isn't a Leftist at 15 has no heart. Anyone who's still a Leftist at 30 has no brain."


    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfburk View Post
    Hitler wasnt a socialist, nor was Stalin a socialist, nor was the USSR socialist, nor is China socialist.
    A convenient excuse. Reminds me the "Communism works, it just has never been tried" crowd.


    Quote Originally Posted by Atterdag View Post
    Indeed. Anti-Semitism was one the more prominent points of Marx, right? Das Kapital stresses the need for emancipation of the oppressed worker through the genocidal extermination of the Jewish race, right?

    Spare us your wannabee intellectualism.
    Spare us your dishonest mis-interpretation of other people's statements.
    Last edited by Erebus Pasha; February 25, 2013 at 03:58 PM. Reason: continuity

  3. #23
    Engie's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Hey Krylos,

    Firstly, it's good that you are asking these questions. Debate is a good way to learn.

    I'd argue that socialism is bad, it's been estimated that there have been around 100 million (which if anything is a fairly conservative estimate) deaths due to communism/socialism being forced upon peoples that arguably didn't want it. Just look at the mass starvations caused by communist/socialist governments in Ukraine and China for example.

    Here is a breakdown of the number of deaths caused by communist/socialist regimes:


    • 65 million in the People's Republic of China
    • 20 million in the Soviet Union
    • 2 million in Cambodia
    • 2 million in North Korea
    • 1.7 million in Africa
    • 1.5 million in Afghanistan
    • 1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
    • 1 million in Vietnam
    • 150,000 in Latin America (mainly Cuba)
    • 10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power."


    (Source: The Black Book of Communism, pg. 4)

    Not to mention the Soviet repressions:


    • the executions of tens of thousands of hostages and prisoners
    • the murder of hundreds of thousands of rebellious workers and peasants from 1918 to 1922
    • the Russian famine of 1921, which caused the death of 5 million people
    • the extermination and deportation of the Don Cossacks in 1920
    • the murder of tens of thousands in concentration camps in the period between 1918 and 1930
    • the Great Purge which killed almost 690,000 people
    • the deportation of 2 million so-called "kulaks" from 1930 to 1932
    • the deaths of 4 million Ukrainians (Holodomor) and 2 million others during the famine of 1932 and 1933
    • the deportations of Poles, Ukrainians, Moldavians and people from the Baltic Republics from 1939 to 1941 and from 1944 to 1945
    • the deportation of the Volga Germans in 1941
    • the deportation of the Crimean Tatars in 1943
    • the deportation of the Chechens in 1944
    • the deportation of the Ingush in 1944


    (Source: The Black Book of Communism, pg. 9-10)

    You can make up your own mind about whether communism/socialism is a good thing or not, but please at least give the above statistics a good thought over.
    Last edited by Engie; February 25, 2013 at 01:15 PM.
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  4. #24
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enemy of the State View Post
    You really don't see a contradiction in that statement? People with power often try to abuse that power, so we should give government(made of PEOPLE) more power?
    No, I don't see any contraction. It was, in fact, my point that government is made of the people (assuming you live in a democracy). Even if you live in a two party democracy like in the USA, government is still more democratic than the average business.
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    @Engie, TS asked why socialism is bad, not why communism is bad.
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  6. #26
    Engie's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lupus Wolfram Tungsten View Post
    @Engie, TS asked why socialism is bad, not why communism is bad.
    Both are interlinked, socialism is the stepping stone to communism so I thought it was relevant to at least mention the numerous deaths and repressions caused by communist regimes.
    Last edited by Engie; February 25, 2013 at 01:24 PM.
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  7. #27
    Atterdag's Avatar Knus zionismen!
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Spare us your dishonest mis-interpretation of other people's statements.
    Oh the irony.
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  8. #28
    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Some very violent responses to someone who clearly stated his age and/or naive stance man...the Academy only damages itself with this kind of attitudes people. We should tone it down sometimes.

    I'll try to to answer accurately later.
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Engie View Post
    Both are interlinked, socialism is the stepping stone to communism so I thought it was relevant to at least mention the numerous deaths and repressions caused by communist regimes.
    Are you saying actual european socialism have something to do with USSR, North Korea or Cambodia?
    "At least mention"? Its all you did
    Last edited by mishkin; February 25, 2013 at 01:50 PM.
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Engie View Post
    Both are interlinked, socialism is the stepping stone to communism so I thought it was relevant to at least mention the numerous deaths and repressions caused by communist regimes.
    Socialism is not the stepping stone to communism and in the same way capitalism is not the stepping stone to socialism. . Marx's view on this is out-dated.
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  11. #31
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Atterdag View Post
    Oh the irony.
    Do explain. Or maybe you should apologize to the other guy first.

    And National Socialism actually is Socialist to some degree. But we don't need to refer to Hitler and the other usual suspects here. Just knowing that we've had 40 years of actual, real socialism here in Germany, and how it turned out, should be enough for the OP.


    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Are you saying actual european socialism have something to do with USSR, North Korea or Cambodia?
    The central part of the USSR is in Europe. Also, socialism sensu stricto is a European originated ideology. Even if it's only loosely adapted by Asian, African, or American countries, there is a connection.
    Last edited by athanaric; February 25, 2013 at 02:48 PM.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Do explain. Or maybe you should apologize to the other guy first.
    Your spamming drivel of a rebuke was ironic in the sense that you quite ignored the point I was making. Namely that Socialism and National Socialism in effect are nothing alike. Uncle Adolf was himself very much against his brand of Socialism being equated with what he called Marxian Socialism - preferring, IIRC, the term Social Revolutionary (or something along those lines).

    And National Socialism actually is Socialist to some degree. But we don't need to refer to Hitler and the other usual suspects here. Just knowing that we've had 40 years of actual, real socialism here in Germany, and how it turned out, should be enough for the OP.
    You heard it here first folks! athanaric declares no mention to be paid to old Adolf when the discussion touches the merry Austrian's very own demented ideology.
    Last edited by Atterdag; February 25, 2013 at 03:31 PM.
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Socialism is the transitional step to Communism in the Marxian view and indeed if anyone would want to set up Communism as Marx described then old fashioned Socialism(state party + planned economy) will make the transition much easier.

    The part that many of you have overlooked is that Socialism is a doctrine.

    The entire Marxist movement was a reaction to the harsh life of the poor but over time the situation improved so Socialism,like the doctrine that is, changed to respond to the new needs.With time Socialism has changed and begun to be seen as a goal in itself rather then a phase for Communism.

    The 3 most prominent "strains" of Socialism that adapted in our time are:

    1.Scandinavia`s Democratic Socialism.This strain of Socialism has changed profoundly with it being a party that was in favour of democratic elections and as an economic system it operates a well regulated mixed market economy.While the methods have changed to goal described by Socialism are more or less achieved in Scandinavia, they have the best social welfare system in the world and those countries are the ones take as standards of human development,the only exception being in the healthcare domain where France the best.

    2.Socialism with Chinese characteristics that is used by the PRC.This strain of Socialism is quite true to it`s original,PRC has a powerful state apparatus but there where significant changed when it came to the economic system.PRC use a mixed market economy in which the state itself operates a lot of those in addition to the private ones.The Chinese named this particular mixed market economy of theirs Socialist Market Economy which in my view is quite fitting because the term Socialism will make people think about planned economy.If we are to place the Scandinavian economic model on an right - left axis with the Chinese one the Chinese one will be more closer to the border with the planned market but both still fall in the mixed market category because the conditions of private owned and utilised means of production in addition to the state regulating the economy are met.
    The Chinese standard of life have improved much since then but the PRC authorities have done little to distribute the wealth accumulated.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    As a small off-topic comment people should note that PRC is starting to lose it`s edge in salaries(with there is huge pressure from the workers to improve) and an ageing population that will make Europe blush not to mention the housing bubble and the fact that PRC didn`t have a recession in 40 years (!!!).Don`t want to sound as a alarmist but I subscribe to the saying "prepare for the worst and hope for the best".

    3.Germany`s Social Democracy.While Social Democracy is it`s own doctrine and separate form today`s Socialism I will mention it since it is a strain that evolved from old fashion Socialism.At the very beginning Social Democracy was nothing more then a synonym for Socialism but it evolved with time in what is today a different yet very close relative to Scandinavian Socialism.SD is for democracy and as a economic system it favours Social Mark Economy(a mixed market system).Germany`s economy was always focused on production and it favours it without undermining the other sectors.

    The German economy is very export orientated and it`s strength is given not by big companies but by it`s Mittelstand - small and medium companies - who gives the German economy a huge flexibility.People might remember that Germany was hit quite hard at the beginning of 2008, it wasn`t only the housing bubble in USA Germany`s Mittelstand understood that the demand for finished products was going down and the demand for tools to make those goods was on the rise thus the Mittlelstand responded.It goes without saying that Germany couldn`t have a big Mittlestand without adequate care.

    In the social domain SD performed well and I would point out that West Germany before unification with East Germany had a per capita comparable with Denmark(!!!) even with the integration of around of 20 million of people coming form an economy worst then today`s Greece they still have a higher standard then UK and comparable with France whit which it exchanges places many times.

    I would like to stress again that Socialism is a doctrine as is Liberalism, Green movement etc. and should not be confused with just a economic system.
    A doctrine aims to provide means to govern the people and an economical system that is to be used thus socialism shouldn`t be confused with planned economy which is just an economic system.

    @Atterdag
    Ignore him, he just claimed that Nazism has something to do with Socialism.Every debater on this forum worth his salt known that Hitler introduced Socialism in the title just to attract people not that he actually favoured parts of it.
    Last edited by ShockBlast; February 25, 2013 at 03:37 PM.



  14. #34
    athanaric's Avatar Equites Alares
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Atterdag View Post
    Your spamming drivel of a rebuke was ironic in the sense that you quite dishonestly misinterpretation and ignored the point I was making. Namely that Socialism and National Socialism in effect are nothing alike.
    In effect they are very much alike, with the main differences being that National Socialism replaces "race" with "class" and that National Socialism has been more genocidal in its short period in the limelight. Why don't you talk to eyewitnesses some day or read some books on totalitarianism, because right now you have no ****ing clue.


    You heard it here first folks! athanaric declares no mention to be paid to old Adolf when the discussion touches the merry Austrian's very own demented ideology.
    Yeah because the GDR's ideology was National Socialism. Try reading properly next time.


    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast View Post
    Socialism is the transitional step to Communism in the Marxian view and indeed if anyone would want to set up Communism as Marx described then old fashioned Socialism(state party + planned economy) will make the transition much easier.

    The part that many of you have overlooked is that Socialism is a doctrine. [...]
    Wow someone actually put some effort into his reply, instead of just being snide. I find your explanation interesting, but you should mention the various Socialist states that existed in Central and Eastern Europe. Because their history is very important when considering the applicability of Socialism in the real world.
    Last edited by athanaric; February 25, 2013 at 03:38 PM.

  15. #35
    Atterdag's Avatar Knus zionismen!
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    In effect they are very much alike, with the main differences being that National Socialism replaces "race" with "class" and that National Socialism has been more genocidal in its short period in the limelight. Why don't you talk to eyewitnesses some day or read some books on totalitarianism, because right now you have no ****ing clue.
    Really. I was unaware that the GDR had massive death camps in Poland. I was also unaware that private property was banned in the Third Reich. Please show us your sources, I'm yearning for seeing more stormfront links.

    You are comparing the most glaring extremes to produce some kind of inane parallel whose only purpose I won't even begin to hint at. I was out drinking yesterday and I don't want my hangover to get any worse. Socialism has had a massive and diverse selection of convictions - from Social Democracy to Stalinism, producing very different results. Equating the Fabian or Swedish socialist version of society with ye olde Hitler's megalomaniac Germanic ideals is asine and - frankly - retarded. The ideals of the Socialist doctrine expand beyond those of the economic modus operandi.
    You should try to look past your ****ing bias next time you open a book.

    Yeah because the GDR's ideology was National Socialism. Try reading properly next time.
    If you had understood the basic sentence I wrote, such nonsense wouldn't even have passed over your keyboard. Should I translate it to Simple English? I know a lot of Germans and they have a hard time grasping the English language
    Last edited by Atterdag; February 25, 2013 at 03:49 PM.
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  16. #36
    athanaric's Avatar Equites Alares
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Atterdag View Post
    Really. I was unaware that the GDR had massive death camps in Poland. I was also unaware that private property was banned in the Third Reich.
    There are many more factors than that.


    Please show us your sources, I'm yearning for seeing more stormfront links.
    I see you're more interested in defaming people than discussing anything. (Great logic by the way, so if I'm saying NS and Socialism have similarities, I'm related to Stormfront somehow?) It's pointless to try and discuss with you.
    Last edited by Erebus Pasha; February 25, 2013 at 04:03 PM. Reason: no longer needed

  17. #37
    Atterdag's Avatar Knus zionismen!
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    There are many more factors than that.
    Quite right, sunshine.

    Like how Hitler demanded the word Socialism to be included in the name of his Nationalsozialismus because he found it to be such a charming concept. Much in the same way Socialists and leftwingers were allowed to live in peace and harmony under the benevolent gaze of the Reich's eagle.
    Last edited by Erebus Pasha; February 25, 2013 at 04:04 PM. Reason: not needed
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    There is nothing good about it.

    I find it amusing that a system in whic a bunch of elitist decide every aspect o your life from ceaseless to grave is touted as "more equal" because people "taken care of", we used to call that slavery.

    Socialism itself as a movement is equal in it vile deeds to Nazism and should be banned,
    Last edited by Menelik_I; February 25, 2013 at 05:38 PM.
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  19. #39
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Denny Crane!
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Menelik you simply can't claim there is nothing good about it, there are no black and white concepts and you can't claim that the doctrine ever created a social good, you can't. You can claim degrees, vs comparitives, but even then ughh. Doesn't feel like we'll be doing anything here.

  20. #40
    D E C's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Basically socialism means that one group works under coercion for another group. A.K.A. slavery. You have no problem with that? I think that anybody who thinks in such a way should be denied of a "fair share". Everybody should have rights but commodities are not right. You are not entitled to other people's money. You are entitled only to what you have produced.
    I'm curious if all the people who say that living standards have decreased overall are living on the same planet as me. Life expectancy, nutrition, mortality rates, infant mortality? Have you ever looked up any of that???? Of course prehistoric people who didn't have money had a great life. That's why they didn't live past thirty...
    I'm speaking here of Socialism as an ideology. Capitalist or mixed economy is the only way to go nowadays, even with nominally socialist governments and according to me an economic system can't be put into moral category - it either works or it doesn't work.
    Last edited by D E C; February 26, 2013 at 12:19 AM.
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