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Thread: What's so bad about socialism?

  1. #1
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default What's so bad about socialism?

    Hello all,

    Before you start hating please accept that I'm only 15 years old and my world views are very naive.
    I've noticed that there seems to be a general hate against socialism and communism. Well I personally can't really relate to communism since it demands a violent revolution, which is bad. I, however, really like the idea of socialism.
    This forum generally seems to be a bit on the right so I'd like to know why you don't like socialism/ why you think it doesn't work.
    It is, of course, always important to listen to both sides to make up your mind.

    The idea that everyone lives together happily doesn't sound too bad to me. If there was no money or at least an even distribution, nobody would have to starve. There would be true equality. Racism could maybe disappear within a few decades, since everyone has the same conditions and you don't suffer from poor or suppressed predecessors.
    My vision is that everyone would work for everyone else and the strong would do anything they could to help the weak and this would enable a good lifestyle for anyone.

    One might argue that a lot of people would stop working since they are being supported by other people. That is a valid point. We'd have to change the motivation for jobs entirely. You wouldn't go to work because you want to gain money to increase your lifestyle and consume, but just to help others or even humanity as a whole.

    And imgagine the change in the economy: If there weren't all these companies working against each other but instead helping each other, there would be an enormous growth within a short amount of time.

    What do you think?

    Greetings,
    Krylos
    Last edited by Krylos; February 24, 2013 at 03:51 PM.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Go and take Biology 101 and learn what Natural Selection is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

  3. #3
    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    I know what Natural Selection is.
    But why can't the human race overcome it? It is by far the most advanced and intelligent species on earth.

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    Diocle's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Socialism is the way to win the great battle against nature, to save humanknd from extinction and to conquer the Galaxy!

    Now more seriously: I'm Socialist because I think that with our numbers, thinking about individual freedom of choice is childish, idividual initiative is today only a dream, to build anything in this world you need cooperation of a great number of men, the individualistic way to the progress is death from many years, now we are living in an horrendous Cpaitalistic Collectivization camouflaged as a free individual initiative...so yes I think Socialism is the only way.

    We should find an agreement about which kind of Socialism we need there are many kinds of Socialism.......
    Last edited by Diocle; February 24, 2013 at 04:27 PM.

  5. #5
    Rights of the Individual's Avatar Cornicularius
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quite frankly, Socialism is merely a stepping stone to Communism.


    With no money, there is no incentive to produce/sell anything. With no incentive to do it voluntarily, threat of force and outright violence becomes a necessity for the state to maintain control, and thus we've reached a Stalinist Communism.

    As far as racism and such goes, may I remind you that Hitler was a Socialist. The concept of racism is a subcategory of a bigger, collectivist idea that uses social divisions for power gains. It benefits the leaders in charge because they are allowed to pit the different societal groups against each-other or align them against a minority; The Communists against the Socialists in Weimar Germany, the Patriots against the Japanese Americans in WW2 era America, Germans against the Jews in Hitlers germany, ect.


    "Weapons of war have no place on American streets." (President Barack Obama), which is why the DHS needs 1.6 Billion rounds of ammunition, 7000 MRAPs to be delivered by 2014, and one M-16 per agent.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krylos View Post
    But why can't the human race overcome it? It is by far the most advanced and intelligent species on earth.
    So? That does not explain why we should abandon Natural Selection.

    However, I don't disagree a limited form of wealth redistribution is a must and the reason is simple; the lower class is far more numberous than upper class and in a war, number would make different. Hence upper class should make sure the lower class would remain happy and ignorant in order to preserve their own safety (in other words, it is like paying protection fee to mafia so the mafia would leave you alone).
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; February 24, 2013 at 04:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

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    Wulfburk's Avatar Sagittarius
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Hitler wasnt a socialist, nor was Stalin a socialist, nor was the USSR socialist, nor is China socialist.
    "If they can prevent me from going as an Emperor, they cannot
    prevent me from abdicating and going as a Fatherland Volunteer"
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    Enemy of the State's Avatar Sovereign Individual
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    The idea that everyone lives together happily doesn't sound too bad to me.
    Society is people living together and not killing each other. That is what we have now. Are we all happy all the time? No, that is impossible, human desires are infinite, however, we all greatly benefit from living in society. What you are proposing is, wheter you realize it or not, the replacement of a society based upon cooperation and mutual benefit to that of coercion and exploitation.

    If there was no money or at least an even distribution, nobody would have to starve.
    Without money there is no way to know what to produce and for who. In a market economy, consumers send signals to producers by exchanging money for products they want. It is far more likely that everyone would starve if money, and thus the price system, was to be abolished.


    My vision is that everyone would work for everyone else and the strong would do anything they could to help the weak and this would enable a good lifestyle for anyone.

    One might argue that a lot of people would stop working since they are being supported by other people. That is a valid point. We'd have to change the motivation for jobs entirely. You wouldn't go to work because you want to gain money to increase your lifestyle and consume, but just to help others or even humanity as a whole.
    How do you change motivation? The answer is obvious, through the barrel of a gun. You change the motivation from reward, to fear of punishment. In a market economy, incentive is offered to do jobs that nobody in their right mind would want to do otherwise. Nobody dreams of becoming a janitor, or the trashman. Nevertheless, these are jobs that have to be done. The incentive to do them is wages. The only alternative is coercion.

    And imgagine the change in the economy: If there weren't all these companies working against each other but instead helping each other, there would be an enormous growth within a short amount of time.
    You benefit from this competition. Everyone does. Competition directs the flow of resources. Resources are limited, that is just the way things are in our universe. We need to have a system to allocate those resources. In a market economy, resources are allocated to where there is the most demand, through the price system, as I explained earlier. Without money and without competition, we would have no way of knowing wheter we are rationally allocating resources.

    Furthermore, competition is merely a small part of the free market, it is not the dog eat dog world you seem to see it as. Far more important is cooperation. To borrow an example from Milton Friedman, have you ever thought about how a pencil is made? It may appear simple at first, but where did the wood come from to make the pencil? Someone had to chop down a tree. Where did he get the axe to do that? Someone had to make the steel for the hatchet. Someone had to mine the iron and coal. Someone had to make the equipment to mine those materials, and so on, to infinity. No one man can make a pencil. People from all over the world, who have never met and might hate each other if they ever did, work together without even realizing it, to produce a pencil that costs you a few cents to buy.

    Hitler wasnt a socialist, nor was Stalin a socialist, nor was the USSR socialist, nor is China socialist.
    Oh come on, the USSR had a public ownership of the means of production. That is the Marxist definition of socialism.
    Last edited by Enemy of the State; February 24, 2013 at 05:00 PM.
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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enemy of the State View Post
    Furthermore, competition is merely a small part of the free market, it is not the dog eat dog world you seem to see it as. Far more important is cooperation. To borrow an example from Milton Friedman, have you ever thought about how a pencil is made? It may appear simple at first, but where did the wood come from to make the pencil? Someone had to chop down a tree. Where did he get the axe to do that? Someone had to make the steel for the hatchet. Someone had to mine the iron and coal. Someone had to make the equipment to mine those materials, and so on, to infinity. No one man can make a pencil. People from all over the world, who have never met and might hate each other if they ever did, work together without even realizing it, to produce a pencil that costs you a few cents to buy.
    Na, it still does not change it is a dog eat dog formula, just this time it is a gang of dogs eating another gang of dogs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

  10. #10
    Enemy of the State's Avatar Sovereign Individual
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Na, it still does not change it is a dog eat dog formula, just this time it is a gang of dogs eating another gang of dogs.
    Living standards have skyrocketed for everyone since the dawn of the industrial revolution. Even the poorest in our society live better than kings of ages past. There is no one getting eaten, not through the market at least.
    Anti-state, anti-war, free market

  11. #11
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Exactly this is why we need socialism:
    Quote Originally Posted by Enemy of the State View Post
    Living standards have skyrocketed for everyone since the dawn of the industrial revolution. Even the poorest in our society live better than kings of ages past.
    Not only capitalists should benefit from new technology like in the industrial revolution, but everyone. People with power often try to abuse their power for their own good, so that's why we need a government that reverts this process and makes sure everyone's getting his fair share.
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    Wulfburk's Avatar Sagittarius
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Oh come on, the USSR had a public ownership of the means of production. That is the Marxist definition of socialism.
    No, the USSR had a state ownership of the means of production, it was state capitalism.
    "If they can prevent me from going as an Emperor, they cannot
    prevent me from abdicating and going as a Fatherland Volunteer"
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  13. #13
    Rights of the Individual's Avatar Cornicularius
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    So is the point of Communism no production at all then?


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    Enemy of the State's Avatar Sovereign Individual
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    No, the USSR had a state ownership of the means of production, it was state capitalism.
    What? That is exactly what Marx wanted and predicted would happen.

    Not only capitalists should benefit from new technology like in the industrial revolution, but everyone. People with power often try to abuse their power for their own good, so that's why we need a government that reverts this process and makes sure everyone's getting his fair share.
    Who did capitalists produce for in the industrial revolution? Who do they produce for today?

    People with power often try to abuse their power for their own good, so that's why we need a government that reverts this process and makes sure everyone's getting his fair share.
    You really don't see a contradiction in that statement? People with power often try to abuse that power, so we should give government(made of PEOPLE) more power?
    Last edited by Enemy of the State; February 25, 2013 at 02:03 AM.
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    Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Krylos View Post
    Hello all,
    One might argue that a lot of people would stop working since they are being supported by other people. That is a valid point. We'd have to change the motivation for jobs entirely. You wouldn't go to work because you want to gain money to increase your lifestyle and consume, but just to help others or even humanity as a whole.
    Until every human can do that what you ask is impossible. You can rest assured that some person will not want to work at all if they can be support by everyone in their whole life, and i doubt that everyone will want to support that group forever.

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    Atterdag's Avatar Knus zionismen!
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    As far as racism and such goes, may I remind you that Hitler was a Socialist.
    Indeed. Anti-Semitism was one the more prominent points of Marx, right? Das Kapital stresses the need for emancipation of the oppressed worker through the genocidal extermination of the Jewish race, right?

    Spare us your wannabee intellectualism.
    Last edited by Erebus Pasha; February 25, 2013 at 03:58 PM. Reason: personal
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    The spartan's Avatar From silence
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enemy of the State View Post
    Living standards have skyrocketed for everyone since the dawn of the industrial revolution. Even the poorest in our society live better than kings of ages past. There is no one getting eaten, not through the market at least.

    Well, no, that isn't true at all. Liberia is not better off from free trade, sorry. The global south is still pretty bad off, and those that are doing "better" are only doing better with the upper % of wealth earners.
    Last edited by The spartan; February 25, 2013 at 03:56 AM.
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    Enemy of the State's Avatar Sovereign Individual
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    Well, no, that isn't true at all. Liberia is not better off from free trade, sorry.
    I'll bite, why?
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    The spartan's Avatar From silence
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enemy of the State View Post
    I'll bite, why?
    No, what I was getting at as that, despite having free trade, their livings standards have decreased, no increased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enemy of the State View Post
    You really don't see a contradiction in that statement? People with power often try to abuse that power, so we should give government(made of PEOPLE) more power?
    This is always a point left out by Libertarians; they seem to believe firms are more trustworthy than the government and can't for the life of me figure out why. The government is the same as a firm (conceptually speaking here) except the input, you know, what motivates them. A firm you give money based on what you want, if you have more money to spend you have more power to influence what you want. In a democratic government, each person gets a vote and that is it, the limit is the same for everybody. Now, you can influence government through other ways but the principle remains the same.
    Last edited by The spartan; February 25, 2013 at 04:24 AM.
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    Default Re: What's so bad about socialism?

    The problem with socialism is human nature. Socialism sounds great: equality, unity and freedom from monopolies, but in reality the threat of monopolies are replaced with the monopoly of the government, without the incentive of self-advancement a great deal of the population has no incentive at all to work hard, at this point force or violence needs to be employed. Like any Utopian ideal: in practice it is in reality a dystopia.
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