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Thread: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

  1. #41

    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Man, this is going to make those hillie maps a pain to play on.

    Everyones going to be hiding their armies behind the hills!

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    This is indeed a great addition. They will insert though capture points in land battles (with a camp function) that will lead to losing the battle if you lose that point and I do not think that this is such a good thing. How are your thoughts on this?
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  3. #43
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    This certainly sounds very interesting, I certainly hope the AI is going to be up for it! I would love to play a proper ambush battle where I have absolutely no idea where the next attack is going to come from. Plus, I've always wanted to be able to send a unit in to a busy battle by surprise without the AI being able to counter it too quickly.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Winning a battle by capturing a point is absolutely ridiculous. I can't honestly pick a battle out of history where capturing a camp won a battle, this just opens the game up to people harassing your camp with cavalry, and possibly winning like this if you're far enough from the camp or devoid of cavalry.

    Then the topic of line of sight, it sounds like a great idea on paper, and I'd love to see it work, but it sounds broken. Whats wrong with the restricted camera of past total war games? I don't want to crest a hill, then an army just magically appears out of thin air right in front of me. We all know this would only work if the enemy units stayed completely invisible until spotted with this LOS mechanic, otherwise we would see them with our bird's eye view camera abilities.

    Then they would have to implement so many new mechanics to work with this LOS change. We would need scouts, and after the scouts spot someone, does the rest of the army magically know where the enemy troops are? That doesn't seem realistic at all. So are we adding realism only to add more magical telepathy between the troops? Besides, the vast majority of battles in history contained two commanders who had rough estimations of their enemies' numbers.

    So now we would have to get rid of the pre-battle screen that shows you the enemy army, and when you double click an enemy army on the map it shows you question marks showing how many unit cards they have, no more of that either. Banners gotta go as well, how colorful they are, or how many bars they have shows how many troops in the army.

    How will I even attack enemy armies on the campaign map anyways? Do I just run around until I bump into one? I mean, if I see one on the campaign map, then realistically speaking, my men know there is an enemy army over there, and its approximately has such and such troops, and it's marching in that general direction. So when I tell my army to attack, I already have all this information on them. For this LOS to work, CA is going to have to hand us a completely different game than the one we have.

    Enough with negativity, I'll offer a suggestion. How about when on the battle map, if the enemy army is such a distance away, it appears as a mob of people, not allowing you to distinguish which troops are which. That way we're expanding on the mechanic of not giving you the unit information on enemy troops when they're too far away, by also blurring their appearance until they've come within a sensible range of which your men can see.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by ♘Top Hat Zebra View Post
    I see this playing havoc with the AI. For one thing, I highly doubt that the AI will be able to handle it. No clever ambushes from the AI, and it will probably already know where all of your men are.

    Imagine this: You fight a long, tough battle, three entire stacks defeated by your tactical skills. You're waiting for your heroic victory screen, and... Waiting... And waiting...

    Turns out there is another enemy unit left. Somewhere. Hidden in the vast Germanic forest. Stuck on the terrain somewhere. Now you have to search the entire map for it.


    Nope, I am not at all looking forward to this. I hope it is optional, but, knowing TW's lack of obvious options in the past, my best hope is that it can be modded out.

    Besides, what counts as "Line of sight"? If your men are in a forest, and the enemy is in the same group of trees, can you see them?

    How is this realistic? Who uses an entire group of 200 legionaries to scout a group of trees? Why should I need to dedicate an entire unit to just sit on top of a hill so I can see where to move my men? Three men could do that!


    I really hope this is an option, like the "Battle Realism" mode in Shogun 2. Total War left realism in this aspect behind when it let you float around in the sky and communicate instantly with all of your units like an angry, biased war god. The AI is going to be as predictable as always, it won't be luring you into clever traps, or hiding units behind hills to surprise you. All this is going to do is make it less cinematic for me.

    It might be better in multiplayer, but it will only cause me problems in single player.
    I agree with what you said and now that I think about it this could cause huge problems unless the AI is better, much better.

    edit: also regarding capture point on a field battle.
    I dont remember which interview they said this but if I paraphrase it:

    "Armies dont face each other in a final battle where its win or die situations. Players have to deal with camps, supply routes and terrain."
    he went on to say some other stuff about scouting ahead, battles no longer being entire stacks fighting it out in one giant battle (like now).

    I am guessing now that the battles on the field are different now, its not longer 2 huge armies in a random location fighting it out but more like there are camps, supply routes, outposts and etc like a realistic battle.
    you cant win a battle if your supply routes are cut, you cant hope to win if your camp is overrun and all of your current supplies are taken.

    name me 1 encounter where an army disregarded all of these and still won the day. it just cant be done and I welcome the change, its getting boring fighting in the same scenario for a decade.

    edit2: also considering LoS, how about when you spot and enemy they show up on your mini map but it does not move since that was the 'last' time you saw them, I always found the bird's eye view kind of cheap in TW.
    LoS sounds fun as long as the AI doesn't go full retard.
    Last edited by Toho; February 24, 2013 at 10:13 AM.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Also, if an army was over the crest of a hill, you would be able to hear their footsteps, voices, clanking of armor, clopping of hooves; they would kick up a lot of dust, and you would see the smoke from fires in their camp. It would sound like a stadium on gameday, and you would know exactly where it was for a long distance.

    Except for small groups of elite units, this line of sight feature would not be very realistic.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Bringer Of Storms View Post
    Winning a battle by capturing a point is absolutely ridiculous. I can't honestly pick a battle out of history where capturing a camp won a battle, this just opens the game up to people harassing your camp with cavalry, and possibly winning like this if you're far enough from the camp or devoid of cavalry.

    Then the topic of line of sight, it sounds like a great idea on paper, and I'd love to see it work, but it sounds broken. Whats wrong with the restricted camera of past total war games? I don't want to crest a hill, then an army just magically appears out of thin air right in front of me. We all know this would only work if the enemy units stayed completely invisible until spotted with this LOS mechanic, otherwise we would see them with our bird's eye view camera abilities.

    Then they would have to implement so many new mechanics to work with this LOS change. We would need scouts, and after the scouts spot someone, does the rest of the army magically know where the enemy troops are? That doesn't seem realistic at all. So are we adding realism only to add more magical telepathy between the troops? Besides, the vast majority of battles in history contained two commanders who had rough estimations of their enemies' numbers.

    So now we would have to get rid of the pre-battle screen that shows you the enemy army, and when you double click an enemy army on the map it shows you question marks showing how many unit cards they have, no more of that either. Banners gotta go as well, how colorful they are, or how many bars they have shows how many troops in the army.

    How will I even attack enemy armies on the campaign map anyways? Do I just run around until I bump into one? I mean, if I see one on the campaign map, then realistically speaking, my men know there is an enemy army over there, and its approximately has such and such troops, and it's marching in that general direction. So when I tell my army to attack, I already have all this information on them. For this LOS to work, CA is going to have to hand us a completely different game than the one we have.

    Enough with negativity, I'll offer a suggestion. How about when on the battle map, if the enemy army is such a distance away, it appears as a mob of people, not allowing you to distinguish which troops are which. That way we're expanding on the mechanic of not giving you the unit information on enemy troops when they're too far away, by also blurring their appearance until they've come within a sensible range of which your men can see.
    If you had bothered to read the translation, it says you can leave units to defend your camp. Just like it used to be in RL. Second, we don't know what shape this will have, however I don't think it will be as simple as capture a flag. In fact cavalry would probably be of limited uselefulness for attacking the camp, since you need infantry to scale the walls, dodge traps, etc.

    As for battles from history, one interesting example is the battle of Gabiene: the left flank of Eumenes was routed, his phalanx in the center(built around the Silver shields) annihilated the enemy center and iirc the right flank was did not engage. the tipping point was the fact that his camp was attacked and his own men surrendered him for execution in order to get back their families and treasure.

    But more importantly, the reason why you don't hear about great battles won due to the successful taking of the enemy camp/cutting their supply routes was because that happened before the battle. Armies which got their supplies cut did not last long. The whole idea was to sever the enemy lifeline and force him to fight on your terms.
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  8. #48
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by torongill View Post
    the reason why you don't hear about great battles won due to the successful taking of the enemy camp/cutting their supply routes was because that happened before the battle.
    Than why the heck would they implement it IN the actual battle, after that phase was already done? That is what we are talking about. Remember that in TW games you play the actual battle and nothing before it? It is certainly new mechanics that are in place here and I eagerly wait for some custom battle gameplay to see how these new stuff work in the game. I am tired of limited historical battles footage from which you can only admire graphics. I want to see mechanics. That is interesting. It is those stuff that make a new TW differ from the older one.
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    well, we need more information to really get into whether mechanics like True LOS and capturable enemy baggage are game-breaking. So far, all we have is one sentence descriptions that are as yet unverified or explained by CA.

    Capturable enemy baggage/deployment area: i think this could be very effective. If i've destroyed the enemy army and control the whole battlefield, I no longer have to hunt down that last half unit he's hidden in the trees in a corner.
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  10. #50
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    So they are just going to pop into view when they are close? And as has been mentioned, how will the AI deal with this?

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    I think that... here CA actually does something bold, to drive their genre onwards. Are we supposed to criticize boldness, or are we supposed to criticize mediocrity. Letting the game remain as it has been - unchanged - that is my personal definition of cowardice and mediocrity. CA is not Blizzard. CA deserves more trust, than simply dismissing these new features outright - a priori. We need more information about them before we can dismiss them as "game breaking." Seriously, I think they've thought about this up until this point, don't you?

    At least this once, they've ignored the suggestions of "least common denominator" mediocrity, and surged forth with renewed vigour!
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  12. #52
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    I love the way people are talking about this being some kind of radical departure from the old TW formula. Ever tried putting soldiers inside a forest? Well, now you can do that but with behind a hill instead. It's not going to be like ****ing starcraft or whatever where your units can see like 50 feet in front of them.
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  13. #53
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    I'm pretty amazed at the negative reception from some players in this thread. You don't want Total War to be improved and do steps towards more realism for battles? Your conservatism is disturbing.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    If I may be so bold, some people seem to be afraid of losing to the AI.

    Line of Sight, if implemented properly, means you can't see behind a hill for example. It doesn't mean your units will be myopic, but it means that if you put them in a ditch they won't be able to see the enemy units. So you will have a real incentive to occupy the high ground. It's as simple as that. Get on high ground, send out scouts to check out the blind spots created by folds in the ground. And no, you probably won't be able to see behind forests, so beware

    And yes, it would mean that units will "pop out" on the crest of the hill. Check out the battle of Cynoscephalae. If you are forced in such a situation the blame wouldn't lie with the game, but with you, because you failed to scout what lies behind the crest of the hill.
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  15. #55

    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Shigawire View Post
    It may be true LOS? Either it is true LOS, or it isn't. "Calling BS" is an invalid and irrelevant argument. Your main gripe with adding true LOS is that it's "not true enough." You want the LOS to also affect how orders are carried through chain of command. But CA has already stated that they aren't going to do this.

    Being able to use topography to hide units behind, is a big enough change for me that I have cared a lot about.
    Calling BS was just an initial reaction to a flawed feature and just a colourful descriptore . I like it like you said, but I am afraid it is not too much more than we already have. At least archers will not be firing over hills .... or will they remember what they have seen before they retreated over the hill and be able to shoot? Or will a unit 10km away have told them in an instant where the enemy is.

    ok true LOS for everybody but the player and the AI.

    I hope their are true scouting and skirmishing parties this time around.
    Last edited by Destraex; February 24, 2013 at 02:28 PM.

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  16. #56
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Petroniu View Post
    Than why the heck would they implement it IN the actual battle, after that phase was already done? That is what we are talking about. Remember that in TW games you play the actual battle and nothing before it? It is certainly new mechanics that are in place here and I eagerly wait for some custom battle gameplay to see how these new stuff work in the game. I am tired of limited historical battles footage from which you can only admire graphics. I want to see mechanics. That is interesting. It is those stuff that make a new TW differ from the older one.
    Because it still happened in battle. At Magnesia Antiochus tried to take the Roman camp after breaking through the Roman left wing. He didn't, but not for lack of trying. At Gabiene Antigonus won the battle, precisely because he took the camp of Eumenes. I don't remember which battle it was(I think a roman battle), but there was one where one side saw the enemy cavalry in their baggage train and broke ranks to try and save their stuff. It might have been Thracians, but for some reason I'm thinking of Gauls...

    The point is, battles in the time period of Rome 2 were often protracted events lasting up to a week - both sides tried to gain the advantage, attacked the enemy foraging parties, water bearers, skirmishes were conducted all the time, etc. It would be quite difficult to simulate that on the main campaign map, so I think and hope CA are trying to implement some of the features on the campaign map and some of them on the battlefield.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernicus II View Post
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  17. #57

    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glorious Nationalist View Post
    If this will have to do with the moral formula than i say its a no-no.
    Imagine if the men are scarred while waiting to be attacked in a misty forest.

    That would mean my men have no chance,and would make ambushes OP
    This is a problem how? That is the entire point of having an ambush. The trick is to avoid it in the first place.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    I hope we will be able to set forests on fire, so I won't be going into some misty forest to get ambushed. Surround the forest and listen to their screams. I also hope this feature will be optional as it sounds like I will just stay at my camp with most of my infantry, while the cavalry and a few infantry troops deal with their camp as the AI army is marching towards mine.

    While LOS would mean you can't see the enemy, marching troops would still make noise. In that case, standing still seems to be the superior option.
    Last edited by Aeneas Veneratio; February 24, 2013 at 03:36 PM.
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  19. #59

    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by triptyck View Post
    well, we need more information to really get into whether mechanics like True LOS and capturable enemy baggage are game-breaking. So far, all we have is one sentence descriptions that are as yet unverified or explained by CA.

    Capturable enemy baggage/deployment area: i think this could be very effective. If i've destroyed the enemy army and control the whole battlefield, I no longer have to hunt down that last half unit he's hidden in the trees in a corner.
    Exactly- to me there has to be some mechanic like this for precisely the LoS final enemy units hiding. Also something more to consider if fighting an HA army- they can retreat before an advancing army but if they retreat too far they expose their camp and might lose the battle- on the other hand if they encourage enemy to advance too far they might be able to attack lightly defended enemy camp before the enemy can return adequate reinforcements.

    We aren't sure exactly how the camp details work, it might simply be a heavy morale blow similar to death of a general where AI if clearly lost 90%> the final 10% in hiding will flee the field. Or it could be a countdown clock where battle ends when timer is complete, or even possibly some other mechanic.

    To me this is positive news overall (only caveat is how AI will handle it) and a welcome change for CA to drive their game forward instead of more of the same battles we've had the past 10 years and more.

    I am more curious how this will affect reinforcements- will each army have a camp? Or the direction of reinforcement might be key- currently when fighting multiple armies common is to advance and concentrate force on 1 army at a time- if required to defend camp at the same time battles become much more interesting.
    Last edited by Ichon; February 24, 2013 at 03:49 PM.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Shigawire View Post
    From PCGamer UK
    ...a subtle but major change to the Total War formula: every unit now has dynamic, terrain-based line of sight, and no enemy unit is visible by default. No more steering your men towards a general magically marked out by a star on the battlefield.
    "Each individual man is actually looking around him," Ferguson explains. "He can only see what he can see. As a result of that you get a much more claustrophobic effect when you're in a forest situation - and much less time to react.
    Yep, this is going to revolutionise the whole battle system.

    Quote Originally Posted by TR00PER7 View Post
    Man, this is going to make those hillie maps a pain to play on.

    Everyones going to be hiding their armies behind the hills!
    Maybe, but please CA don't change anything about this just because the MP mewlers pipe up again - and while you're at it, give the sodding archers back their range bonus when elevated, so they can make use of their new 'line of sight'!
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