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Thread: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

  1. #101
    rogue shadow's Avatar Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Sounds awesome....

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    Shigawire's Avatar VOXIFEX MAXIMVS
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by oOIYvYIOo View Post
    Weird because untill now the units of 200 men only had 1 line of sight and now that each man can have one and inform the entire unit ,as it always should be , they should (or will ) have alot more view of whats hapening all around the unit ,specially to counter enemies charges on the rear. I think you and others dont possess a true knowledge of a man and or unit on a battlefield on those times.
    I think you've misunderstood. There was no line of sight in the previous TW games. Hiding in forests, tall grass.. that's all there was. Unit x walks on tall grass - unit x turns invisible. Until enemy unit y gets close enough. But that's not the same as LOS. What it means, is the ability to hide troops behind topography, such as small hills, river banks, ditches etc.
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    niko from Australia's Avatar Munifex
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    I think this is a great aaddition if done right. adds so much tactics to battles. this is the biggest gameplay change in tw in years.

  4. #104
    Durnaug's Avatar Pili
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    "No more steering your men towards a general magically marked out by a star on the battlefield."

    Yeh, now I get to march all over the map for ages, looking for a hidden enemy. Realism is fun.

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    Serkelet's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnaug View Post
    "No more steering your men towards a general magically marked out by a star on the battlefield."

    Yeh, now I get to march all over the map for ages, looking for a hidden enemy. Realism is fun.
    Now we have to properly use light cavalry to scout the enemy, adding more tactical and strategical elements. Oh, the tragedy!

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    Centurio
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnaug View Post
    "No more steering your men towards a general magically marked out by a star on the battlefield."

    Yeh, now I get to march all over the map for ages, looking for a hidden enemy. Realism is fun.
    You don't have to march all over the battlefield. If their camp is ungaurded then you can take it. Is it any different then now? You can just hide your soldiers in a forest and keep them there now also. This way you don't just have to wait for the timer to run out, you can take their main camp. Besides im sure the camp will only be on the defense teams side. This new gameplay they are adding changes everything. Tactics will be changed and the battlefield is now a true battlefield. liek others said the battles usually lasted for a lot longer then one giant fight. Adding the LoS makes it so you don't have a huge battle right away. You can have small skirmishes now. trying to find where the main army is and what their goal is. Tactics have really just sky rocketed.

    Now i do agree that it could end up being really really bad. But it is a good start in the right direction and is helping evolve the Total war series in to a true war simulator. Eventually total war will be even better then europa universalis. Once they can get diplomacy down better and improve the A.I. we can be looking at something I have been waiting for since i started with shogun. A game that can truly simulate the ancient world.

  7. #107
    torongill's Avatar Equites Alares
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by ♘Top Hat Zebra View Post
    Yeah, that's already why I don't like fighting in forests. I mean, the AI sets it's forces up very predictably, so I KNOW where it's units are. They are just invisible, and that's annoying. Like Varangian Cohort, I like TW battles for the cinematic feel. I like to see both armies, marching towards each other, clashing.

    Now I will see one army, until they get close enough to the invisible enemy army, where it will suddenly pop into existence.
    Stay the **** out of the forests. Pick the high ground. That's not difficult. At. All.

    @Shigawire, I feel the same way

    The ambush at Teutoburg is impossible to do in God-mode UAV-type. The first knowledge the Roman army had that they are being ambushed was after Arminius had left, when suddenly the forests erupted in Germanic war cries and a rain of javelins and arrows and stones began to hit the legionaries.

    Trebia can be done correctly only if the Roman army cannot see the two thousand men of Mago springing from the ambush.

    Trasimene was one big ambush, helped by the fact that heavy fog from the lake covered the valley. Imagine it - fog so thick you can't see the next unit, woods covering the slopes. The first signal that something is wrong is a trumpet and then the thousands of enemies bursting forward to kill your men in the flank. And to add more grief, the officers are on the wrong side of the formation.

    Ilipa started with a dashing cavalry charge by the Carthaginians, led by Mago(yes, the same Mago). Only Scipio knew who he was playing against and hid his cavalry behind a hill(Does this remind you of something? ), which then charged in the Carthaginian flank and threw them back with heavy losses.

    Baecula was decided by Scipio hiding his heavy infantry(ready for battle but hiding in the camp) and then during their approach to the enemy camp. The result was that the Carthaginians, expecting only a skirmish, routed.

    Pharsalus was decided by Caesar's separate fourth line of infantry hidden behind his horse. When his cavalry was thrown back by the Pompeian cavalry, which outnumbered them 7:1, the legionaries sprang up and charged the enemy horses(which outnumbered them iirc 3:1) and routed them. The routing Pompeian cavalry and the Caesarian infantry chasing them crashed into the Pompeian light infantry, which broke and ran, thus uncovering the flank of the infantry line of Pompey, which was rolled and routed.

    In a medieval setting, the battle of Adrianople in 1205: The Bulgarian forces under Kaloyan hid north of Adrianople and sent the light Cuman cavalry to harass the Crusaders. The Knights chased the Cumans to the place of the ambush, where the Bulgarian forces surrounded them and annihilated them.

    There are probably many more
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    total relism's Avatar Princeps Posterior
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Shigawire View Post
    From PCGamer UK
    ...a subtle but major change to the Total War formula: every unit now has dynamic, terrain-based line of sight, and no enemy unit is visible by default. No more steering your men towards a general magically marked out by a star on the battlefield.
    "Each individual man is actually looking around him," Ferguson explains. "He can only see what he can see. As a result of that you get a much more claustrophobic effect when you're in a forest situation - and much less time to react.


    this is one of the best ideas ca has ever had, great they fixed this.


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    oppaiO_O's Avatar Hastatus
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    i like it...plus it'll be awesome if this whole camp thing is only in for the defenders to prevent the attackers to just camp in theirs and not attacking like they should and this way the al will have less options, if they attacked you then their only mission is to send scouts look for you and your camp and commence the battle if they're defending then all their units, even scouts, will be in the defending camp/points and this will decrease the "al is dumb it can't do two things at once" thought, though battles might get predictable fast... lets just wait and see what they have for us next friday or 'till E3
    Quote Originally Posted by George Orwell
    “Shall the common man be pushed back into the mud, or shall he not? I myself believe, perhaps on insufficient grounds, that the common man will win his fight sooner or later, but I want it to be sooner and not later—some time within the next hundred years, say, and not some time within the next ten thousand years. That was the real issue of the Spanish war, and of the last war, and perhaps of other wars yet to come.”

  10. #110
    SonOfCrusader76's Avatar Equites Alares
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Serkelet View Post
    Now we have to properly use light cavalry to scout the enemy, adding more tactical and strategical elements. Oh, the tragedy!
    Yep, how dare they actually make recon scouts mean something? And in a game about ancient warfare too! Tut, tut CA...

    Back in the land of reality - remember the way in Time Commanders, they had to use their recon scouts wisely or they could end up missing a whole part of the enemy's force? It'll probably be more like that now, and that's a great thing.
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  11. #111
    Shigawire's Avatar VOXIFEX MAXIMVS
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by yutterh View Post
    Now i do agree that it could end up being really really bad. But it is a good start in the right direction and is helping evolve the Total war series in to a true war simulator. Eventually total war will be even better then europa universalis. Once they can get diplomacy down better and improve the A.I. we can be looking at something I have been waiting for since i started with shogun. A game that can truly simulate the ancient world.
    Affirmative. I'm certain CA has been discussing true LOS among themselves ever since Shogun was developed back in 99-2000, but decided against it for game play or other reasons. The result could end up being atrocious. However, I am certain they have not taken this decision lightly. If you are afraid of failure, you will never excel at anything. I can understand that certain game studios do nothing to change up the formula behind their strategy titles. But, let's face it. Most studios are like that. Shy to take risks, conservatism, taking the easy way out. There are plenty of other game companies who do that. Let's not throw a priori temper tantrums when one studio decides not to milk the udder of predictability. Lets be merry that we at least have one (and Paradox) pushing the envelope on strategy titles. As for the risk that this feature could end up as a failure, we do have confirmation that CA has more AI coders than ever before. And after that is where CA's quality assurance and testing comes in to play. Let's hope the testers are able to balance this new feature adequately. Game designers are also crucial in having a vision for how the battles will work with LOS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torongill View Post
    Stay the **** out of the forests. Pick the high ground. That's not difficult. At. All.

    @Shigawire, I feel the same way

    <snip>
    lots of battles
    <snip>

    There are probably many more
    Excellent examples. There are many more. At the top of my mind, though not in the ancient era, the Napoleonic battle of Austerlitz, in which he made a false concession of the Pratzen heights. As the Allies attacked Napoleon's feigned weak right flank.. his Grande Armée was hidden behind a minor "dead ground" - and could not be seen by the Allies. No magic forest or tall grass. Simply topography and fog. The Grande Armee then went forth to commit the main assault. Youtube at current time explains in detail:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFv2F...ailpage#t=244s
    Last edited by Shigawire; February 25, 2013 at 09:59 AM.
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  12. #112
    RagingCroppy's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnaug View Post
    "No more steering your men towards a general magically marked out by a star on the battlefield."

    Yeh, now I get to march all over the map for ages, looking for a hidden enemy. Realism is fun.
    No, now you get to march into the enemy camp and capture it. Realism is fun!

  13. #113
    Lockcaps's Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    I very much hope this will make ambushing both on the campaign map and on the battle map itself better. There's just no point in doing that now, skirmishers (or light infantry) are almost useless, mostly because they take up a precious slot in your army which you could use for more heavy infantry instead.

  14. #114
    Maiden_Ante's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Serkelet View Post
    Now we have to properly use light cavalry to scout the enemy, adding more tactical and strategical elements. Oh, the tragedy!
    Because spending another half hour on each battle is what I want to do!

    Seriously though, I think most of us are just falling for the hype. It's probably not gonna be that different, just that units can hide behind hills and such as well as in forest - which I have no complaints about.

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Maiden_Ante View Post
    Because spending another half hour on each battle is what I want to do!

    Seriously though, I think most of us are just falling for the hype. It's probably not gonna be that different, just that units can hide behind hills and such as well as in forest - which I have no complaints about.
    I think you're mostly right here. It's going to be not that dissimilar from what we're used to. It's really just marketspeak for two features:

    1. Terrain can block line of sight. No longer do you have to be in forests/long grass to go invisible. Now you can be behind a hill, behind a forest, etc.

    2. There are no longer any "always visible" units such as Generals with a big "kill me, i'm here" sign over their heads.

    In exchange - particularly for the latter - there will now be objectives on the map. So instead of running around trying to find the elusive hiding unit for a half hour (have any of you fought the Hattori in S2?? little bastards hide units EVERYWHERE), you can simply capture their "base". You also can't pull $#^% where you kite the enemy around with an inferior force (as you can with Bow Kobayas, or Light Cavalry) and run out the clock. You both know there's an objective, so they have to defend it and you have to assault it or vice versa.

    It's basically a giant setup. You know they're there, but if they use the terrain, you won't know precisely where they are. They know you're coming, but if you use the terrain, they won't know precisely where from. They can't see you coming from ten miles away just because of your General, or because your guys happen to be walking across neatly trimmed grass on the far side of a forest or a hill.

    Of course, there will be more traditional battles on nice, flat open fields (or deserts) as well. Relax.
    Last edited by Charsi; February 25, 2013 at 01:07 PM.

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    Greatonesh's Avatar Signifer
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    didnt understand !!!
    so what?
    you click on the unit and point it to where you want !!! does it matter the unit can see the enemy or not ? , you see it .
    enlight me

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    SODK's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Greatonesh View Post
    didnt understand !!!
    so what?
    you click on the unit and point it to where you want !!! does it matter the unit can see the enemy or not ? , you see it .
    enlight me
    Well I think it means that you can only see what your units has "reported" to you. Which means, if none of your units see it, you dont either I think it could be a great feature

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    Serkelet's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Charsi View Post
    I think you're mostly right here. It's going to be not that dissimilar from what we're used to. It's really just marketspeak for two features:

    1. Terrain can block line of sight. No longer do you have to be in forests/long grass to go invisible. Now you can be behind a hill, behind a forest, etc.

    2. There are no longer any "always visible" units such as Generals with a big "kill me, i'm here" sign over their heads.

    In exchange - particularly for the latter - there will now be objectives on the map. So instead of running around trying to find the elusive hiding unit for a half hour (have any of you fought the Hattori in S2?? little bastards hide units EVERYWHERE), you can simply capture their "base". You also can't pull $#^% where you kite the enemy around with an inferior force (as you can with Bow Kobayas, or Light Cavalry) and run out the clock. You both know there's an objective, so they have to defend it and you have to assault it or vice versa.

    It's basically a giant setup. You know they're there, but if they use the terrain, you won't know precisely where they are. They know you're coming, but if you use the terrain, they won't know precisely where from. They can't see you coming from ten miles away just because of your General, or because your guys happen to be walking across neatly trimmed grass on the far side of a forest or a hill.

    Of course, there will be more traditional battles on nice, flat open fields (or deserts) as well. Relax.
    You fail to see the big picture: it's not just that units can hide behind hills and forests. They can also hide behind walls. Archers won't be able to shoot against garrisoned units with milimetrical accuracy anymore, because they won't see them. The way you will approach almost every situation will change. It's not a "little change".

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    T-Duke's Avatar Hastatus
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Serkelet View Post
    Now we have to properly use light cavalry to scout the enemy, adding more tactical and strategical elements. Oh, the tragedy!

  20. #120
    torongill's Avatar Equites Alares
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    BTW, the spanish edition of a game magazine has stated that you can still view your troops in the default eagle eye view. However, if they don't see an enemy unit, the player cannot see it. So in a way enemy units may "pop out of nowhere" if your units don't have a line of sight to the enemy unit. Furthermore, on the highest difficulty enemy units will not appear on the minimap. At all. Now, this may be just in the historical battle of Teutoberg, the map of which is shown, but I think it will be a general feature. So maybe on easiest you will still be able to see enemy units, despite the LoS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernicus II View Post
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