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Thread: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by wrcromartie View Post
    1st quote - accurate & I hope for one that they DO implement something like this. 2nd part - THZ is an infamous troll. He's usually pretty funny though.
    It is accurate. But not in this situation. Not in the way they will make it. Multiplayer will become a wonderful game of "Who can camp better" and singleplayer will be fun with it's AI that will not be able to handle protecting it's camp.

    Capturing the enemy camp would not make them lose the battle. At most, it would cause a moral hit. Now, if the battle lasted for days, sure, this would make a difference. But in a TW battle, absolutely nothing should happen. "Oh, they got out camp? That's ok, we still outnumber them 2-1. Oh, what's that? We lose? Oh..."

    It's like the ending of ****ing Star Wars. Just because you blow up the Death Star does not mean you automatically win.

    For another thing, why, when anyone disagrees with your viewpoint, do you automatically assume they are trolling? Are you really so arrogant and immature as to believe that the only way someone could disagree with you is if they were joking?

    I do not care about units having the wrong boots, or hair cut. I don't really care if they are slightly more muscular than in reality. I don't care if their names are in English. But I do care when they try to drastically change the way TW battles have been played forever. This will take all of the freeform gameplay out. You will simply headshot the enemy armies every single time by taking their camp, because the AI will not be able to handle this. It can only just handle regular field battles, where it's only goal is to make us lose, and now we're going to try and make it scout and protect a base camp, as well as attacking us? Yeah, right.

    For another thing, again, this is not realistic. What if you are next to one of your cities, deep in your territory, and an invading army attacks you? Will you have a baggage train? Will you have a base camp? Because that would make no sense.

    TW battles are relatively tiny, even with the improvements on size that Rome 2 will bring. They take place over a short period of time. They take place in quarters so confined that it wouldn't matter if a base camp was overrun. It's not like there's any chance that either army will actually go back anyway. For that matter, who brings a baggage train so close to the engagement? It would be off-map. This is something that agents should handle, not battles.

    How will this work on the maps? Will they no longer have maps generated from the Strategic Map terrain? Will all battle maps be like the sieges in Shogun 2?

    This makes battles no longer about defeating the enemy through tactics and skill, but by seeing who can capture the flag faster.

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by ♘Top Hat Zebra View Post
    It is accurate. But not in this situation. Not in the way they will make it. Multiplayer will become a wonderful game of "Who can camp better" and singleplayer will be fun with it's AI that will not be able to handle protecting it's camp.

    Capturing the enemy camp would not make them lose the battle. At most, it would cause a moral hit. Now, if the battle lasted for days, sure, this would make a difference. But in a TW battle, absolutely nothing should happen. "Oh, they got out camp? That's ok, we still outnumber them 2-1. Oh, what's that? We lose? Oh..."

    It's like the ending of ****ing Star Wars. Just because you blow up the Death Star does not mean you automatically win.

    For another thing, why, when anyone disagrees with your viewpoint, do you automatically assume they are trolling? Are you really so arrogant and immature as to believe that the only way someone could disagree with you is if they were joking?

    I do not care about units having the wrong boots, or hair cut. I don't really care if they are slightly more muscular than in reality. I don't care if their names are in English. But I do care when they try to drastically change the way TW battles have been played forever. This will take all of the freeform gameplay out. You will simply headshot the enemy armies every single time by taking their camp, because the AI will not be able to handle this. It can only just handle regular field battles, where it's only goal is to make us lose, and now we're going to try and make it scout and protect a base camp, as well as attacking us? Yeah, right.

    For another thing, again, this is not realistic. What if you are next to one of your cities, deep in your territory, and an invading army attacks you? Will you have a baggage train? Will you have a base camp? Because that would make no sense.

    TW battles are relatively tiny, even with the improvements on size that Rome 2 will bring. They take place over a short period of time. They take place in quarters so confined that it wouldn't matter if a base camp was overrun. It's not like there's any chance that either army will actually go back anyway. For that matter, who brings a baggage train so close to the engagement? It would be off-map. This is something that agents should handle, not battles.

    How will this work on the maps? Will they no longer have maps generated from the Strategic Map terrain? Will all battle maps be like the sieges in Shogun 2?

    This makes battles no longer about defeating the enemy through tactics and skill, but by seeing who can capture the flag faster.

    I could take your example and turn it around. If you outnumber 2:1 your enemy and still he manages to take your camp, you definitely did something really wrong in the battle. You should have ben able to asign more than enough men to protect it.

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Yes, but that means nothing because the AI can't think like that. It will either try to both attack you and defend, or it will only do one, and either way, it will not be able to handle it.

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by ♘Top Hat Zebra View Post
    Yes, but that means nothing because the AI can't think like that. It will either try to both attack you and defend, or it will only do one, and either way, it will not be able to handle it.
    AI can't handle battles already anyways... But I see your point. Though we still don't know how the AI will behave in Rome 2, we are just asuming too much here. AI has been improving slowly and slightly with each Total War game, so it would be safe to asume they will improve it again... How much? I don't know, but I hope enough so it is able to protect their camp AND attack you.

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Well on the defender should have this camp anyway and if they are not inside their own region.

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Does this feature mean the player can only see the enemy units once my troops have 'seen' them? So at the start of the battle I won't see anything but then wham! Thousands of enemies suddenly appear once my troops 'see' them. If it's like that I really won't like it.

    Most casual gamers probably won't want to have to scout for enemy units all the time and be always worried where the enemy army is. They'll just want to see the enemy army from the start and fight.

    I like being able to fly around the battlefield, see what's going on and see what the enemy is doing. I know it's not realistic that way, but we're not playing as the general. Instead we're playing as the whole army.
    Last edited by ✠Ikaroqx✠; February 25, 2013 at 02:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Well basically this feature in any case has already been in Total War where units can hide in forest. I think Rome II just expand a bit more. No need to concern much.

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Yeah, that's already why I don't like fighting in forests. I mean, the AI sets it's forces up very predictably, so I KNOW where it's units are. They are just invisible, and that's annoying. Like Varangian Cohort, I like TW battles for the cinematic feel. I like to see both armies, marching towards each other, clashing.

    Now I will see one army, until they get close enough to the invisible enemy army, where it will suddenly pop into existence.

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Well you can see them for Roman vs Roman or Roman vs Greek army fighting. Not all factions fights the same way. The info is possiby base on Teutoberg Forest battle and not the whole game so this features might only be available for certauin factions, like Suebi for example where it was mentions ambush a few times.

    We can expect all unarmoured germanic units to be able to face Roman legions on head to head battle where they will be slaughtered. Without advantages, not just in forested are of using terrain then there's no possibility of barbarian factions to win against Roman/Greek armies.

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Sure, but they have advantages in the normal way. The "Can hide anywhere" thing was always useful.

    But now it's not an advantage anymore, because both sides have to deal with it. My hope is either that it's only for certain factions or, preferably, it's an option.

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    What both sides ? I think this handicapped is probably with the players. I don't think the AI will be using this LOS. It's possibly one of the feature that make battle harder, rather than giving huge nonuses to the AI.

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    In which case it's just more fake bonuses for the AI.

    There is just no way this will be good for me.

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Hopefully this feature will only be part of an optional 'realism' mode for battles

    As CA have said themselves they cater for both die-hard history nuts and casual gamers
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by ♘Top Hat Zebra View Post
    In which case it's just more fake bonuses for the AI.

    There is just no way this will be good for me.
    You're hoping too much. AI are just codes created by human. They can never think of themselves.

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by IX Varangian Cohort View Post
    Hopefully this feature will only be part of an optional 'realism' mode for battles

    As CA have said themselves they cater for both die-hard history nuts and casual gamers
    That's my biggest hope. Because I have no doubt it will add more depth to battles, and I totally get why some people want it in. But me, personally, I do not want it.

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    I Think this LoS feature deals with forest and armies obscured by terrain elevation. By the quote I don't think we will lose the cinematic feeling of armies approaching nor will an army pop up while you are in range.THe most possible way to do it, is to restrict camera movement within a certain radius from your units and make enemy units that are beyond your LoS (meaning, behind a hill, in a forest etc) not visible in your battle map. Once they are in open terrain (on top of the hill, or they move in great numbers in the forest) they would be visible in the battle map.
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    That's just the way the factions work. I'd argue, fundamentally, the only faction required in Rome 2 is the obvious one - Rome. They could've sold you a game where you can only play Rome 2, and while it might kind of suck, it would in no way be inappropriate - the game is, after all Rome 2

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    I dont see all the fuzz about it. Line of sight is a factor in almost all strategy games except TW where you got a godmode and can see the enemy ages before the battle. Even simple strategy games like Red alert, CC, and also many of the e-sports use a restrictive LOS to make scouting, positioning and fast responses more importent then the actual army/unit you got (hell isnt that why we play TW, to do amazing undoable things on the battlefield ala Alexander?). For multiplayer i dont see any problem with this LOS, infact this is one of the best things ever happening if it is done correctly.

    I also dont get the problem people are having here with the AI in SP. Even if the AI can 'cheat' and dont use the same LOS as we got, it will still strugle to win. The AI in almost all TW are rediculously stupid where the AI only makes a chance if they greatly outnumber you anyways, giving them an advantage will only make the game harder for us which is good.

    All in all, new line of sight +1 kudos and +2 karma

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by ♘Top Hat Zebra View Post
    Yeah, that's already why I don't like fighting in forests. I mean, the AI sets it's forces up very predictably, so I KNOW where it's units are. They are just invisible, and that's annoying. Like Varangian Cohort, I like TW battles for the cinematic feel. I like to see both armies, marching towards each other, clashing.

    Now I will see one army, until they get close enough to the invisible enemy army, where it will suddenly pop into existence.
    I think you are forgetting Total War are about tactics and strategy, not about cinematic simulation. Maybe you don't find it fun to having to think, plan and use wits and strategy to win, but some of us actually do like having to do all of this, go figure!

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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    When you've read some of the histories of this era, you start to grow a hunger for some of these features. I want to relive some of the actions taken during these battles. This is the proper way for the total war series to evolve, and long over due.
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    Default Re: Finally... True Line of Sight! Been wanting this in TW for over a decade :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Shigawire View Post
    From PCGamer UK
    ...a subtle but major change to the Total War formula: every unit now has dynamic, terrain-based line of sight, and no enemy unit is visible by default. No more steering your men towards a general magically marked out by a star on the battlefield.
    "Each individual man is actually looking around him," Ferguson explains. "He can only see what he can see. As a result of that you get a much more claustrophobic effect when you're in a forest situation - and much less time to react.
    Weird because untill now the units of 200 men only had 1 line of sight and now that each man can have one and inform the entire unit ,as it always should be , they should (or will ) have alot more view of whats hapening all around the unit ,specially to counter enemies charges on the rear. I think you and others dont possess a true knowledge of a man and or unit on a battlefield on those times.

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