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Thread: Belgae

  1. #1
    Aquilifer
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    Default Belgae

    There seems to be at least 3 main theories and depending on who you read is what you get for an answer. Most of these theories are based on archeology, toponymic evidence and written evidence. It seems depending on the authors predisposition is what leads to a particular conclusion.

    The "Celtic" historian see's the Belgae as "Celtic" claiming the toponyms as being "Celtic" as are the names and most of the archaeological finds. The written evidence, especially by Caesar is usually seen as political and has no bearing on the reality of the situation.

    The "Germanic" historian see's the toponyms as being early German and agreeing with the writings of the Romans of the time(Caesar, Tacitus, etc.) while the archaeological and some of the names as being "Celtisized".

    The third is that being of the Nordwest block which is similar to the "Germanic" view except they say the Belgae were neither "Germanic" nor "Celts".

    Without siting wikipedia, is there any books (post the year 2,000) or good links that discuss the origins of the Belgae?

  2. #2
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Belgae

    I remember Caesar mentioned they were Celts? In the end you have to remember that the term Celts is more a cultural definition, not related to genetic type.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

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    Edelfred's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Belgae

    They,some of them, have been the last Continental Celts to migrate to Britain . Continental Celts as differintiated from Iberian-Celtic .
    Anywhere, Belgae were running in trousers.....only and had that winged helmet - in popular fantasy ,at least.Still the trousers made them different from
    Iberian-Celts in kilts .

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Belgae

    I always thought besides a small group, most Celtic Iberians were just Iberians that adopted Celtic culture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

  5. #5
    Edelfred's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Belgae

    But not to the extent to wear decent Gallic trousers or fight like a man of Gaul with a sword in the hand .
    Those Iberians were trowing darts - that kind of thing .

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    Diocle's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: Belgae

    The decent Gauls wearing trousers were kicked in their decent arses from Massilia till Scotland by indecent Romans wering tunics covering iron balls! Muahahahaahahah!

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    Edelfred's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Belgae

    Was not Massila Greek ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    The decent Gauls wearing trousers were kicked in their decent arses from Massilia till Scotland by indecent Romans wering tunics covering iron balls! Muahahahaahahah!
    -and then Romans were kicked from Belgium to North Africa , by Germanics wearing trousers
    Last edited by Edelfred; February 23, 2013 at 06:02 PM.

  8. #8
    Diocle's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: Belgae

    Yes but they ruled the Gauls and the Belgium for 500 years and those kicked were mainly Gauls, Belgians and Germans with Roman uniforms, so........in some way they kicked themselves in their own arses!
    Last edited by Diocle; February 24, 2013 at 10:00 AM.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Belgae

    Romans themselves wore trousers too...
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

  10. #10
    Diocle's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: Belgae

    Yeah! the Northern Limina were quite cold...... But from the IV century even in the South trousers were fashionable.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Belgae

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Yeah! the Northern Limina were quite cold...... But from the IV century even in the South trousers were fashionable.
    Because it is good as a pajama.

    Anyway anyone find it interesting that Roman trousers look exactly like modern pajama?
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

  12. #12
    Diocle's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: Belgae

    Hell I think that in the North they used them with leg-bindings or cross-garters (in this way I differentiate my 25 mm Late Romans), but they used also bare legs with bindings (look at the mosaics of Piazza Armerina), but you are right the trousers were actually like pajama.

  13. #13
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Belgae

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Hell I think that in the North they used them with leg-bindings or cross-garters (in this way I differentiate my 25 mm Late Romans), but they used also bare legs with bindings (look at the mosaics of Piazza Armerina), but you are right the trousers were actually like pajama.
    Yap, and trousers also served as a partial leg protection to prevent scratch or cut during marching, particularly in rough terrain (similar reason why British used puttee during WWI).
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

  14. #14
    Aquilifer
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    Default Re: Belgae

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    I remember Caesar mentioned they were Celts? In the end you have to remember that the term Celts is more a cultural definition, not related to genetic type.
    Caesar begins with differentiating the Gauls from the Belgae and Aquitani.
    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar-"The Gallic War"
    All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another, those who in their own language are called Celts, in our Gauls, the third. All these differ from each other in language, customs and laws. The river Garonne separates the Gauls from the Aquitani; the Marne and the Seine separate them from the Belgae. Book 1, 1
    Caesar makes them out to be distinct peoples, furthermore for the Belgae he says:
    Quote Originally Posted by Caesar-"The Gallic War"
    When Caesar inquired of them what states were in arms, how powerful they were, and what they could do, in war, he received the following information: that the greater part of the Belgae were sprung, from the Germans, and that having crossed the Rhine at an early period, they had settled there, on account of the fertility of the country, and had driven out the Gauls who inhabited those regions; and that they were the only people who, in the memory of our fathers, when all Gaul was overrun, had prevented the Teutones and the Cimbri from entering their territories; the effect of which was, that, from the recollection of those events, they assumed to themselves great authority and haughtiness in military matters. Book 2, 4
    This is used as proof for those that propose the "German" theory of origins for the Belgae, and somewhat for the "Nordwest Block" theory and is almost completely ignored by "Celticists" or it is claimed(understandably so) that the original Germani were actually "Celts" that lived on the other side of the Rhine. The problem with the "Celticist" views of Caesar is that he distinguishes Germanic speaking peoples from the Gallic speakers who are different from the Belgae. Caesar also does not link the language of the Belgae with that of the "Germani".

    The last book I read(written in 2004) followed the Germanist view and had some very good reasons, but in turn they all do. This is why I was wanting some rather recent books from more archeologists/linguists/historians. As it stands it is a toss up for me between the NordWest Block and the "Germani" view.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Belgae

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf View Post
    Caesar makes them out to be distinct peoples
    Caesar actually made Aquitani a distinct people too, and in fact we know culturally they were not. Such distinctions become much thinner in his later description.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frostwulf View Post
    This is used as proof for those that propose the "German" theory of origins for the Belgae
    Except you did not quote everything completely. In fact Caesar continued saying:

    Of these three, the Belgae are the bravest, for they are furthest away from civilization and culture of the Province. Merchants very rarely travel to them or import such goods as make men's courage weak and womanish. They live, moreover, in close proximity to the Germans who inhabit the land across the Rhine, and they are continually at war with them.
    Clearly he made the distinction between Belgae and German, and even went so far to indirectly suggest a cultural war between those two.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

  16. #16
    Edelfred's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Belgae

    So ,according to Frostwulf quote Belgae were some crossbreeds with Germanics .
    Celtic have lot of crossbreeds from Semigalia,Latgalia in Baltic and Galicia in Western Ukraine to Hibernia-Southern Irland and Galicia in NW Spain .
    So its sounds possible .
    Aquitani are originally from that Basque-Chechen unique language group of people who inhabited parts W Europe before Indo-Europeans.
    They could got influenced by Celts ofc with the time but they inhabited S France prior to Celtic expansion
    Last edited by Edelfred; February 25, 2013 at 05:26 PM.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Belgae

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelfred View Post
    So ,according to Frostwulf quote Belgae were some crossbreeds with Germanics .
    It is possible although culturally they were not German, or Caesar would not make a big fuse to distinct those two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelfred View Post
    Aquitani are originally from that Basque-Chechen unique language group of people who inhabited parts W Europe before Indo-Europeans.
    They could got influenced by Celts ofc with the time but they inhabited S France prior to Celtic expansion
    Possible again, although it seems Caesar made Aquitani a separated group because:

    1. Aquitani at this time seemed was the most "civilized" group, probably because their close contact with Roman for considerable time.

    2. Political propaganda, as Aquitani was a major ally of Caesar and possible even continued during Civil War.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

  18. #18
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Belgae

    Celt doesn't really mean anything except belonging to an international northwest European centered linguistic, religious, and artistic culture distinct from and often in conflict with the classical Mediterranean ones that spanned from Ireland to Turkey.

    The Irish Goidels, Scottish Picts, Welsh Brythons, Britannic Gauls, Occitanic Aquitanians, Belgic Belgians, Swiss Helvetics, etc were all "Celts" but they weren't the same thing ethnically any more than the Germans or Slavs were a people.

    Celtic was real, I mean there was a Celtic culture, but then there was a Roman culture, a Gothic culture, a Frankish culture, a Norman culture, and so on that shaped the wider western European culture. But it wasn't like these people were remotely united or linked by anything beyond similar ways of life.

    If the Belgians are Celtic it's like saying the South Africans are British. It's only sort of true.
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  19. #19
    Aquilifer
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    Default Re: Belgae

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987
    Originally Posted by Frostwulf
    Caesar makes them out to be distinct peoples
    Caesar actually made Aquitani a distinct people too, and in fact we know culturally they were not. Such distinctions become much thinner in his later description.

    Originally Posted by Frostwulf
    This is used as proof for those that propose the "German" theory of origins for the Belgae



    Except you did not quote everything completely. In fact Caesar continued saying:

    Of these three, the Belgae are the bravest, for they are furthest away from civilization and culture of the Province. Merchants very rarely travel to them or import such goods as make men's courage weak and womanish. They live, moreover, in close proximity to the Germans who inhabit the land across the Rhine, and they are continually at war with them.


    Clearly he made the distinction between Belgae and German, and even went so far to indirectly suggest a cultural war between those two.
    Sorry I wasn't very clear, but I do agree with you that the Belgae, Aquitani,Gauls and "Germani" are all different from one another. I put this into the earlier post; "Caesar also does not link the language of the Belgae with that of the "Germani". I should have gone into more detail. I'm not sure what you mean by a cultural war between the "Belgae and Germani"

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelfred
    So ,according to Frostwulf quote Belgae were some crossbreeds with Germanics .
    They may have been fully Germanic but "Celtisized", or a mixture of the two being "Celto-Germanic" or possibly a entirely different people as some have suggested a paleo-Italic grouping. Some suggest that the Belgae may have been part of the harpstedt culture, which is considered "Germanic".
    Simon James did not elaborate much above what I quoted on the Belgae, he said nothing of the harpstedt or any other culture:

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon James
    Belgae were culturally and perhaps linguistically more like the peoples-called-(by Caesar, and *perhaps* already among themselves)-Germans than like (say) Aquitanian Gauls.



    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987
    It is possible although culturally they were not German, or Caesar would not make a big fuse to distinct those two.

    This all depends on who you read, this is why I have stated the 3 main theories which includes "Germanic". According to several historians/archaeologists the Belgae have a material culture that is closer to "Germanics" then that of the "Celts"/Gauls. The historians/archaeologist I have read also suggest that it was a proto-Germanic group followed on the heels by other Germanic groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by [SIZE=2
    hellheaven1987[/SIZE]]
    2. Political propaganda, as Aquitani was a major ally of Caesar and possible even continued during Civil War.
    It was the Aedui, who were Caesars allies, not the Aquitani. Edelfred has made a good point of the Aquitani, as I have read this as well. Again all this points to Caesar as being fairly accurate in his writings on ethnography, but far from perfect. This is especially interesting considering what is known of the Ubii and how well they fit into Caesars writings.

  20. #20
    Edelfred's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Belgae

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Celt doesn't really mean anything except belonging to an international northwest European centered linguistic, religious, and artistic culture distinct from and often in conflict with the classical Mediterranean ones that spanned from Ireland to Turkey.

    The Irish Goidels, Scottish Picts, Welsh Brythons, Britannic Gauls, Occitanic Aquitanians, Belgic Belgians, Swiss Helvetics, etc were all "Celts" but they weren't the same thing ethnically any more than the Germans or Slavs were a people.

    Celtic was real, I mean there was a Celtic culture, but then there was a Roman culture, a Gothic culture, a Frankish culture, a Norman culture, and so on that shaped the wider western European culture. But it wasn't like these people were remotely united or linked by anything beyond similar ways of life.

    If the Belgians are Celtic it's like saying the South Africans are British. It's only sort of true.
    Celts originated from Eastern Austria , British ones-they took too much from Iberians trough Celt Iberians all that mediteranean staff skirts throwing weapons -skitarii dartsmen , sheep eating curly hairs .
    Picts are colored people means non Europeans they genes are Berberian . Celts hated them before for tenacious defence of theur land and Picts hated Celts too for occupation . Check the Burns poem on the topic .
    it goes like that in that poem :
    'After the last battle Scotts only got 2 captured Picts they wanna toture them to know the recipee of Pictish mead .
    Older Pict says I'd reveal secret but kill the young fellow first so I want be ashamed in front of him .
    Scotts kill the Pictish lad ,but then the old Pict says I just knew that youngster can reveal secret if you'd torture him
    But I am old I'd die but tell you nothing' - defiance
    Howard contributed alot of Scottish archetypical memories of people they conquered .
    At 13, Howard, being of Scottish descent, began his studies of Scottish history and became fascinated with what he calls "the small dark Mediterranean aborigines of Britain." As these Picts were portrayed as inferior to later tribes, Howard imagined them as a link between modern and ancient times.
    Those who play AoC or read Howard Conan's tales remember Picts -degenarates savages enemies so you see Howard Scottish ancestors provided him with their vision of Picts . Nowdays the nationalists want to make nice face of that all saying we have not
    occupied Picts they...maybe were ...us Celts - pure propaganda
    Last edited by Edelfred; February 28, 2013 at 01:54 AM.

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