OotMm are too weak- Balancing ideas?

[D'yer Maker]

I've been playin' many campaings with MOS and Vanilla, and also tried to play with expanded map mod on both.

I've noticed that no matter if i play good or evil faction, or with MOS ect ect. as i mentioned above, OotMm are always too weak. Also OofG seemed kinda weak too.
Good factions just rumble over them. (In MOS they are even weaker 'cause the elves of lorien)

Also Harad is ridiculously strong. I think that Umbar and few other regions on the south (2 - 4) should be under rebel control. That would give gondor slighty better position and it would be nice mix for the game. How about neutral Khand faction or something?


Opinions? Ideas?

[Selerz]

Have you tried the TATW Realism submod?

[Wizad]

The OotMM would be balanced if they had a bit more variations of trolls. Perhaps 1 weak kind of troll to supplement the OotMM early game. Hill or Cliff Trolls, the Snaga among the troll units.

These can be acquired before the Barracks Event. Harad should have weaker troops. Right now they are a 'backwards' desert kingdom which produces high quality armies at the same rate as the Bulwark of the West, Gondor.

Khand usually falls under Rhunic control in my games.

I oppose a new Khand faction. You should activate the Strong OoG, Strong Isengard and Strong Mordor scripts if you play MOS as a good faction.

[Mank]

There are some really fun ideas kicking around right now in the sub-mods for improvement to Orcs of MM and Gundabad. At the moment I know that DCI: The Last Alliance is planning on incorporating an apache-style unit tree for Orcs of MM which will most likely include a bolstered unit selection. TATW Realsim is another one that does quite a lot of re-balancing. There have been several attempts at Gundabad mods but at the moment MOS's added rhudar units are pretty much the best available for them at the moment.

As far as sub-mods go the one that might really re-work both the orcs and Harad dynamic is Divide and Conquer 4.0. I think they plan to split Harad into the desert faction and then the "Pirates of Umbar" as a second. That will undoubtedly re-balance the Harad issue. I don't know about unit rosters for the Orcs in DaC 4.0, but fingers crossed they'll get some love as there is no doubt they are on the lean side. Wizad is right, a few more early units would really give both Gundabad and MM a boost.

[LuckyPistol]

OotMM are decent in vanilla, in fact they usually take imladris and hold their ground against the silvans before the dwarfs take Dain's hall (or not). Its just that in MOS, there's too many enemies to deal with, and they become dependant on the OoG.

I say only the OotMM should get wargs before barracks event since their initial enemy is an archer heavy faction.

[Finkeren]

I've only played OotMM in vanilla, before I installed MOS, so I have relatively limited experience. To me it seems, that their main problem is, that the AI is terrible at using javelin skirmishers, which are the factions bread-and-butter early on. In vanilla, I largely based my economy on defeating one dwarven invasion after another with very few casualties and selling them back their captured generals.

Generally speaking, I'm not a fan of balance for balance's sake. To me the central question is: Does the faction "feel" right? And I actually think that OotMM is spot on. Let's face it:The Goblins in Moria were never destined to conquer Middle Earth, but with strength in numbers and careful use of speed, ranged weapons and trolls, they can kill dwarves well enough, though they will always be easy prey for elves.

If you're gonna change anything at all, I have 2 suggestions:

1. Beef their high-tier archers a bit. Even their best archers are only half way decent. They shouldn't be anywhere near elves, but should at least be able to stand up to Gondor and Rohan.

2. Give them javelin-equipped light cavalry. This will suit their play style and make them much more of a threat against most enemies. One major "balance" issue from this would be, that they would absolutely murder the dwarves, but hey: They actually did wipe out the kingdom of Khazad-dûm, didn't they?

[Lortano]

Actually, it was the Balrog that did that.

[D'yer Maker]

Thanks for good posts.

I haven't played TATW realism submod.

I think that OoTMm needs totally new unit roster. Also wargs before barracks event and cheaper early units, apache like archers (fewer with long range missles and higher missle/melee attack). I'd like to see mordorlike stackspamming though. They would still rely on numbers.

I also thought about relatively "weak" Ered Mithrin orc-faction (Grey mountains, there where the Dain's Halls lies, 2 - 3 starting regions) That Would give Silvan Elves more challenge as EoL and HE (with Eriador) Are taking care OoG and OoTMm. In MOS of course.


The case thats around Umbar-harad. Ummh. I think that the best way to make harad weaker is to make great amount of regions under rebel control on South-west. That would also allow Gondor immigrate those lands and that would make some lore sense to me. As Umbar and Harad are different kingdoms (though often allied). Anyway you've got the point.

[Finkeren]

Yeah you're right, my bad. At any rate the OotMM managed to wear down Balins expedition over a period of five years :/

[ArmyCharger]

What about giving the OotMM warg bodyguards? This would be a mayor improvement for the player, especially when fighting the orcs. As the elves, you would no longer be able to just destroy the orc armies friom a distance, retreating your archers when they get too close. Also, it would seriously improve the orcs' early-game.

[Duke of Metz]

What about giving the OotMM warg bodyguards? This would be a mayor improvement for the player, especially when fighting the orcs. As the elves, you would no longer be able to just destroy the orc armies friom a distance, retreating your archers when they get too close. Also, it would seriously improve the orcs' early-game.

Very interesting idea! That would really strengthen the OOTMM, especially early. It would also be a great way to mix up the playstyle of the two orc factions. One could also make the case that it fits in better with the lore - using the OOTMM alliance with the Wargs from the Hobbit.

[GideonAI]

Instead of creating entirely new units, they could just get special armories that allow them to upgrade their units to become slightly more on-par with late game Good factions. Of course, the armories would be expensive and late-game as well, but at least it would give them some balance later on. I also really like the warg bodyguard idea.

[Arond]

I'm finished up a OoMM Vanilla campaign right now and I have to say I really like the warg bodyguard idea. As noted, it would make them feel different from the OoG as well as help them against the elves for chasing down those archers.

[Aldor]

- Cavalry bodyguards are nearly always overpowered.

If you would remove those from the HE and Eriador, it would already aid the orcs against the player.

- The AI can't use cavalry generals.

They'll run ahead and suicide themselves or get into a melee without recharging where their low numbers mean certain defeat.

+ the general dies which is really bad for low morale factions.

- Increase the range of snaga skirmishers a tad more so they can shoot at archers and melee more easily without having to run away. Those javelins do alot of damage. Also make them a bit more durable to soak more arrows up and get closer.

- Decrease number of Elves per unit as most mods do.

[Spice Master]

I'm in the early stages of building a dedicated faction enhancement submod for OOTM. The build will be for vanilla 3.2 but will be available for incorporation in to FROGS, MOS, etc, once released. Please leave comments and feed back here if you're interested in this.

[ArmyCharger]

- Cavalry bodyguards are nearly always overpowered.

If you would remove those from the HE and Eriador, it would already aid the orcs against the player.

I completely agree with removing cavalry bodyguards for Eriador, though I would maybe prefer it if all generals Eriador starts with are Rangers, while the default type is still the cavalry bodyguards (and Aragorn would have infantry melee bodyguards and gandalf cavalry bodyguards). That way, by the time you turn into Arnor, most of your bodyguards would be cavalry. This would represent the dunedain gradually taking a more open route in their battle against evil during the campaign.

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- The AI can't use cavalry generals. They'll run ahead and suicide themselves or get into a melee without recharging where their low numbers mean certain defeat.

+ the general dies which is really bad for low morale factions.

Well yeah, but the AI is WAY worse at handeling infantry bodyguards. I've far greater difficulties killing the cavalry bodyguards of Gondor, Rohan, the HE and Rhun than AI infantry bodyguards. All it takes is one good timed cavalry charge to kill an infantry general.

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- Increase the range of snaga skirmishers a tad more so they can shoot at archers and melee more easily without having to run away. Those javelins do alot of damage. Also make them a bit more durable to soak more arrows up and get closer.

They're supposed to be crap and I like them crap.

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- Decrease number of Elves per unit as most mods do.

I completely agree

[LuckyPistol]

I've never thought of a Warg Cavalry General unit, and I have to admit that doesn't seem too off from lore....at least it isn't boars

I think the OotMM should have less unit cost so they can at least make up with numbers what they lack in decent units, and the snagas should not be bad at throwing, the one thing they're useful for

If you think Vanilla is hard, try MOS. There is no way you can win without "cheating" with the OotMM. Three elf factions plus dwarves attacking you at once is absurd

[Vifarc]

- Increase the range of snaga skirmishers a tad more so they can shoot at archers and melee more easily without having to run away. Those javelins do alot of damage. Also make them a bit more durable to soak more arrows up and get closer.

And Dwarf players will cry more.

[knight of meh]

And Dwarf players will cry more.

let them cry the dwarf campaign isn't even a challenge to people who haven't played total war games before ..

[Aldor]

NB: Don't give Eriador more mounted rangers. Make sure that it are foot troops. Horse archers are even more lethal then archers and melee cav sometimes.

Actually OotMM would benefit most from the enemy factions having good melee bodyguards. Because melee can be swarmed.

Lowering unit count for Elves seems the best and most lorewise idea. I also like lower costs for snaga forces without better stats (real swarm crappy troops).

Eriador's ranger/dunedain units can also have lower numbers.

Concerning the Dwarves... Unbeatable in narrow passages such as sieges. Even if you halve their numbers. Don't use them to chase snaga in an open battle.