Page 3 of 17 FirstFirst 12345678910111213 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 329

Thread: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

  1. #41
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Sure sure.

    Well my main contention would be in the mix up, the vagueness in whether the bible is allegorical or not but either way you have many examples of divine intervention on a grand scale and the creation story to contend with.

    Hinduism basically espouses the logic of the first cause argument, they deal directly with the question of how the universe began and what lies behind all physical phenomenon and how they could deal with the idea of human consciousness. Through direct experience and knowledge gained through meditation (supposedly) they theorised that there is something akin to the platonic realm, and that realm the underlying essence is Brahman. Brahman is the universe.

    You can attain some measure of unity with Brahman through personal development and meditation. You come to some understanding of the duality of the physical self and the underlying reality of the universe and the connection of the soul to that underlying reality.

    "What is Brahman? The underlying reality of the universe that is beyond this world which cannot exactly be defined. The initial manifestation of hte universe and all therein."

    Other manifestations of the belief become almost atheistic in ways. The Samkhya philosophy didn't accept the idea of a supreme creator, but used a concept called Prakriti, incorporating evolution of life and the 24 principles of manifest creation. This is I believe the basis for the Buddhist belief Pratītyasamutpāda (cause and effect, dependent origination).

    Ultimately though Hindu scholars accept that Brahman is unknowable and the pursuit of knowledge of it is frought with problems. This article discusses this:

    http://www.hinduwebsite.com/inexplicable.asp

    I suspect I'm not doing a very good job of explaining it actually, I'm due at work in an hour and can't really focus on it. Ultimately though their idea of God is based on the idea that you can come to some measure of knowledge through personal development and that there must be causes for the universe but accept the difficulties in knowing the unknowable which to me goes a great deal towards the philosophical analysis of trying to know the unknowable, there is truth in their admission that it is fraught with difficulties as opposed to the blind faith and self delusion that you can automatically know the nature of God through a few scripts and texts.
    Last edited by Denny Crane!; February 17, 2013 at 12:48 PM.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    The pursuit of knowledge and awareness through meditation represents a much different path from Western traditions, that's fore sure.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  3. #43
    saxdude's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    House of Erotic Maneuvering
    Posts
    10,420

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    I don't empers is entirely correct. Christianity did not conquer anyone (unless you count the crusades and the conquest of the americas).
    Which is countable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    On a more serious note. I believe in God because I know he exists. How do I know he exists? Simple: the numerous miracles He or the Saints perform, miracles witnessed by thousands of people from around the globe. Even I witnessed a very minor miracle a couple of years ago.
    On the other hand there is nothing to account for Odin's existence. Much like the other pantheons, everything about him and the other Norse gods comes from legends, which are conveniently placed loooooong ago in a far away realm. There is nothing concrete about him. Basically, it's the rough equivalent of someone asking 2000 years from now why people don't believe in Aragorn or Darth Vader.
    And those miracles performed by those gods in the life times of those who believed in them? Like those that helped the creation of Alexanders Empire? Or those battles mentioned earlier in which Odin was said to appear? Or the countless miracles performed by the Aztec patron god, proving to the Aztecs that they were the chosen people?

    As opposed to believing in some poor carpinter that converted water into wine and returned from the dead over 2,000 years ago, of whose feats there are no historical records? Who witness these miracles you are talking about and have they taken the time to attribute scientific reasoning for them?

    Sounds very hypocritical, all of that.

  4. #44
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    The pursuit of knowledge and awareness through meditation represents a much different path from Western traditions, that's fore sure.
    But they also have a more realistic philosophical basis for God, they accept all the fundamental problems of trying to know the unknowable and don't assume knowledge with no basis or proof of God. This is the fundamental difference which makes Brahman a more grounded philosophical basis for the belief in God.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    But they also have a more realistic philosophical basis for God, they accept all the fundamental problems of trying to know the unknowable and don't assume knowledge with no basis or proof of God. This is the fundamental difference which makes Brahman a more grounded philosophical basis for the belief in God.
    To be fair though that is not a stance which is non-existent in Western religious philosophy, although IIRC Islamic philosophy tends to be much more confident (or arrogant depending on your stance) in that regard.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  6. #46
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    To be fair though that is not a stance which is non-existent in Western religious philosophy, although IIRC Islamic philosophy tends to be much more confident (or arrogant depending on your stance) in that regard.
    In this you have to separate the incorporation of western philosophical thought that gets layered on top of Christianity and Judaism but is not those things, merely attempts to rationalise them and the scriptural and philosophical basis for those beliefs. If you put enough WPT into Christianity and condemn most scripture as being allegorical without to much basis and start transforming your belief system you may well end up at a Brahman like belief which says to me, why didn't you just start there?

  7. #47

    Default Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    I don't think that's true though. Christianity itself developed in tandem with philosophy, it can be read into its scriptures. Stoicism especially. Early Christians embraced Neoplatonism not as a veneer but as an intrinsic part of their worldview.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  8. #48
    empers's Avatar Tiro
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    226

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    I don't empers is entirely correct. Christianity did not conquer anyone (unless you count the crusades and the conquest of the americas). Christianity spread by attraction (which is the opposite of conquest). It spoke to the lower classes, to the downtrodden and hopeless, it gave them hope, a sense of belonging, and a sense of community; something which none of the ancient religions was capable of doing.
    Ofcourse the crusades and the conquest of america count. But you also seem to forget the teutonic crusade in the baltics and the purge of paganism from scandinavia. Also countless more tribes have been subdued by violence. Besides that i did mean conquest to denote both peacefull conversion and violent conversion to catholicism.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    The idea of monotheism being something that predates either Christianity or Islam, and in actuality being a philosophical idea rather than strictly a religious or superstitious one, you might try starting from Ancient Greece to see why it was considered exceedingly more rational by more and more thinkers over beliefs in gods inhabiting and/or representing mundane parts of the earth. I'll give you a hint -- one actually contains a rational and philosophical element, the other is relegated to superstition and/or attempts by a tribe to justify their supremacy over another tribe, by claiming "divine descent."
    There's nothing rational about monotheism, and any advantage in rationality you imagine monotheism has over "superstition" is purely imagined. I'm going to go aheda and quote The God Delusion on this one:
    All religious beliefs seem weird to those not brought up in them. Boyer did research on the Fang people of Cameroon, who believe ...
    ... that witches have an extra internal animal-like organ that flies away at night and ruins other people's crops or poisons their blood. It is also said that these witches sometimes assemble for huge banquets, where they devour their victims and plan future attacks. Many will tell you that a friend of a friend actually saw witches flying over the village at night, sitting on a banana leaf and throwing magical darts at various unsuspecting victims.
    Boyer continues with a personal anecdote:
    I was mentioning these and other exotica over dinner in a Cambridge college when one of our guests, a prominent Cambridge theologian, turned to me and said: 'That is what makes anthropology so fascinating and so difficult too. You have to explain how people can believe such nonsense.' Which left me dumbfounded. The conversation had moved on before I could find a pertinent response -- to do with kettles and pots.
    Assuming that the Cambridge theologian was a mainstream Christian, he probably believed some combination of the following:

    • In the time of the ancestors, a man was born to a virgin mother with no biological father being involved.
    • The same fatherless man called out to a friend called Lazarus, who had been dead long enough to stink, and Lazarus promptly came back to life.
    • The fatherless man himself came alive after being dead and buried three days.
    • Forty days later, the fatherless man went up to the top of a hill and then disappeared bodily into the sky.
    • If you murmur thoughts privately in your head, the fatherless man, and his 'father' (who is also himself) will hear your thoughts and may act upon them. He is simultaneously able to hear the thoughts of everybody else in the world.
    • If you do something bad, or something good, the same fatherless man sees all, even if nobody else does. You may be rewarded or punished accordingly, including after your death.
    • The fatherless man's virgin mother never died but was 'assumed' bodily into heaven.
    • Bread and wine, if blessed by a priest (who must have testicles), 'become' the body and blood of the fatherless man.

    What would an objective anthropologist, coming fresh to this set of beliefs while on fieldwork in Cambridge, make of them?
    The fact is the same reasoning that tells us a ball will come down when thrown up also tells us the magical events described in Abrahamic myth simply didn't happen. If you don't actually believe any of that, well, I'm interested in hearing what you actually believe.
    Last edited by removeduser_4536284751384; February 17, 2013 at 02:38 PM.

  10. #50
    empers's Avatar Tiro
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    226

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    There's nothing rational about monotheism, and any advantage in rationality you imagine monotheism has over "superstition" is purely imagined. I'm going to go aheda and quote The God Delusion on this one:
    The fact is the same reasoning that tells us a ball will come down when thrown up also tells us the magical events described in Abrahamic myth simply didn't happen. If you don't actually believe any of that, well, I'm interested in hearing what you actually believe.
    Your source criticizes christianity the wrong way.
    First of all (assumed that the fatherless man is jesus): jesus father in religion is god, so since that is so the christian world doesn't find him fatherless.
    Secondly: your source describes as jesus judges all souls, which he does not god judges who's worthy and who is not.
    third: the bread and wine which was blessed by jesus was figuratively as he meant he gave up his body and blood to feed us and free us from evil.
    and all the other events is clearly work of god and if that doesn't seem dumb and stupid to a large part of the world which you can clearly see as millions follow religions.
    In short your source just tries really hard to make it sound stupid but one who knows the bible sees through that.

  11. #51
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Amon Amarth
    Posts
    12,572

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calypze View Post
    I would like to ask the local followers of religions like Islam and Christianity why you don't believe in Odin. What is it to you that make Yahweh's or Allah's existence seem plausible but not Odin's existence? Or at least making your god's existence more plausible than Odin's existence. What are your reasons for not believing in Odin?


    See, he is real!
    The Religion of the Ancient Germans is a serious matter, an interesting mix between an ancient cult of the forces of the nature in which probably the female element predominated, lately represented by Freya, and the insertion of a more Eastern Shamanic component in which Wotan and Thor now were the most important deities. Interesting to note the shamanic ritual death of Wotan who literaly died to resurrect to a new consciousness, the Germanic Pantheon is also a complex structure of characters, and the reading of the Nordic Edda (not the Edda of Snorri, which is later) is a very interesting experience (sadly for an Italian reader the great part of the wonderful sounds of the alliterative poetry is lost) a complex world in which there is not a dogmatic truth and also the deities are part of the common fate of humankind.

    In my opinion the Germanic tribes developed a complex and interesting Religion more serious and interesting than the Gospels and the Quran that I find extremely boring, a pure repetition of silly obviousness and nothing more, and probably many of the principles written in the Gospels and Quaran are wrong if not dangerous for the human collectivity......

  12. #52

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    I accept God's existence for deductive reasons, and have no comparably convincing reasons to believe Odin exists as anything more than a once-venerated warlord. In short, we all interpret the world we see around us, and my particular interpretation is that the best explanation is divine causation; 'God' is simply a more feasible explanation in my opinion. Believing this to be the case does not necessitate blind faith in every deity ever invented: in no way is this a logical step. There is no watertight deductive path that leads from this interpretation of reality to the belief that Odin will get eaten by a giant wolf at Ragnarok.

    Indeed, it is threads like this that are destroying my will to even bother posting round here. If you chaps really want to engage with theists, then start threads of genuine interest for both sides. Recently I am seeing more and more 'how theists are stupid' threads with the first twenty odd comments being 'I agree'. In what way is this discussion forum? It seems to me to be one side perpetually discussing the 'idiocy' of the other side, and becoming highly confrontational when a member of the other side actually turns up.
    So spake the Fiend, and with necessity,
    The tyrant's plea, excused his devilish deeds.
    -Paradise Lost 4:393-394

  13. #53
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Louisville, Kentucky
    Posts
    12,895

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calypze View Post
    I would like to ask the local followers of religions like Islam and Christianity why you don't believe in Odin. What is it to you that make Yahweh's or Allah's existence seem plausible but not Odin's existence?
    Their religion mandates the belief in only one deity, and the worship of such a figure. It wouldn't make sense for a Christian or Muslim to believe that other gods exist. If they were polytheistic, they wouldn't be Christian or Muslim, by definition. Their religion gives a specific theology that its participants have to believe in, in order to identify as part of that religion.

    In contrast, my religion gives no particular theology outside of "at least two gods are interacted with". They can be interpreted monistically, polytheistically, duotheistically, or even atheistically (though the weirdness of Jungian psychology). I happen to be polytheistic, but that is a result of other experiences; not my religion in and of itself.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valden View Post
    I accept God's existence for deductive reasons, and have no comparably convincing reasons to believe Odin exists as anything more than a once-venerated warlord. In short, we all interpret the world we see around us, and my particular interpretation is that the best explanation is divine causation; 'God' is simply a more feasible explanation in my opinion. Believing this to be the case does not necessitate blind faith in every deity ever invented: in no way is this a logical step. There is no watertight deductive path that leads from this interpretation of reality to the belief that Odin will get eaten by a giant wolf at Ragnarok.
    Would you mind sharing your deductive argument that only applies to Christianity?

  15. #55
    empers's Avatar Tiro
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    226

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valden View Post
    Indeed, it is threads like this that are destroying my will to even bother posting round here. If you chaps really want to engage with theists, then start threads of genuine interest for both sides. Recently I am seeing more and more 'how theists are stupid' threads with the first twenty odd comments being 'I agree'. In what way is this discussion forum? It seems to me to be one side perpetually discussing the 'idiocy' of the other side, and becoming highly confrontational when a member of the other side actually turns up.
    I'm a theist and I don't see any hostility towards me.... Also not all atheists act that way only the atheists who are not worth listening to really act hostile or stupid towards us...
    But maybe we theists should make some more threads, I don't see much theist threads around here(not that i have a clue about what we should start 1)

  16. #56
    Aeneas Veneratio's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Copenhagen (Denmark)
    Posts
    4,703

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valden View Post
    I accept God's existence for deductive reasons,
    The Christian god, right? What makes the Christian god more truthful/believable than god according to Islam or a deistic god? I have yet to see any useful definition of this god's abilities, personality, role in the material world, etc. to bother with refuting any god claim.
    R2TW stance: Ceterum autem censeo res publica delendam esse

  17. #57

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    I don't empers is entirely correct. Christianity did not conquer anyone (unless you count the crusades and the conquest of the americas).
    LOL! "Christianity Hitler did not conquer kill anyone (unless you count the crusades Jews and the conquest of the americas Poland).

    Christianity spread by attraction (which is the opposite of conquest).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Wars
    "During the Saxon Wars, the Christian Frankish king Charlemagne waged war on the pagan Saxons for over 20 years, seeking to Christianize and rule the Saxons. During this period, the Saxons repeatedly refused Christianization and the rule of Charlemagne, and therefore rebelled frequently. In the year 782 of this period, Charlemagne is recorded as having massacred 4,500 rebel Saxon prisoners in Verden (the Massacre of Verden), and imposing legislation upon the subjected Saxons that including the penalty of death for refusing conversion to Christianity or for aiding pagans who did the same (such as the Capitulatio de partibus Saxoniae)."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi...of_Scandinavia
    "Olaf I of Norway, during his attempt to Christianize Norway during the Viking Age, had those under his rule that practiced their indigenous Norse Paganism and refused to Christianize tortured, maimed or executed, including seidmen, who were tied up and thrown to a skerry at low tide to slowly drown.[citation needed] After Olaf I's death, Norway returned to its native paganism."

    Christianity was spread violently in the Americas and in other places. One of the reasons the Japanese persecuted Christians for a long time was that it was seen as an aggressive religion, an aid to western imperialism.
    Last edited by Shams al-Ma'rifa; February 17, 2013 at 05:51 PM.


  18. #58

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Why don't they believe in Odin? Intellectual dishonesty.

    Course, most aren't honest enough to say that.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by mkesadaran
    Christianity was spread violently in the Americas and in other places. One of the reasons the Japanese persecuted Christians for a long time was that it was seen as an aggressive religion, an aid to western imperialism.
    Sure, it had nothing to do with Japanese cultural arrogance and their own imperialist tendencies. Ironically Christianity was introduced and spread perfectly peaceful in Japan (as Christianity introduced by Jesuits tended to be), and the violent reaction towards it was unwarranted.

    Everywhere that Christianity spread by violence was a byproduct of those Christian polities doing the conquering having ulterior motives rather than just wanting to convert the heathens. The Papacy indeed would sign off on these campaigns, but the actual reasons for them to be launched in the first place was quite worldly and material. The New World would have been conquered even without God being a clarion call -- the amount of Gold and the prospects for Glory were more than enough, religion just put a nice veneer of legitimacy upon it all.

    I know that some people want to blame religion for all the ills of the world, no matter how lacking the evidence or unsatisfying that explanation is, but the reality is much more complex yet also much more mundane.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  20. #60

    Default Re: Christians and Muslims: Why don't you believe in Odin?

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Sure, it had nothing to do with Japanese cultural arrogance and their own imperialist tendencies. Ironically Christianity was introduced and spread perfectly peaceful in Japan (as Christianity introduced by Jesuits tended to be), and the violent reaction towards it was unwarranted.

    Everywhere that Christianity spread by violence was a byproduct of those Christian polities doing the conquering having ulterior motives rather than just wanting to convert the heathens. The Papacy indeed would sign off on these campaigns, but the actual reasons for them to be launched in the first place was quite worldly and material. The New World would have been conquered even without God being a clarion call -- the amount of Gold and the prospects for Glory were more than enough, religion just put a nice veneer of legitimacy upon it all.

    I know that some people want to blame religion for all the ills of the world, no matter how lacking the evidence or unsatisfying that explanation is, but the reality is much more complex yet also much more mundane.
    The matter in question was if Christianity was spread violently, and yes... It did. It also spread peacefully, but it does not deserve its pacifistic image.

    What makes Christianity different from other religions is its association with westernization. There is no place that Christianity enters where western ideas, good and bad, doesn't enter with it. Ironically, some of these ideas are even anti-religious in nature, such as sexual liberation. That's not to say Christianity encourages promiscuity, but once you bring a state to Christianity, you attach it to the western cultural sphere where these ideas can spread more easily. More than just a religion, Christianity has become a tool of cultural imperialism--emphasis on imperialism--because it was during the age of imperialism that Christianity truly became a world religion.

    That's why I mentioned Japan. Like you said, oftentimes its not about the religion, but about the political aspects which go alongside it.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •