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Thread: Most ap units are useless.

  1. #1
    Miles
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    Default Most ap units are useless.

    I am new to this mod but i must say this is one a great alternative to Stainless steel , RTR, RS2 , and Darthmod. I like so many things about it but i noticed that most units with AP weapons are really underpowered . Lets take armenian nakhakar unit for example. It has attack of 7 and its AP which means it penetrates 50% of opponents armor . Now few units like cataphracts have armor rating of 10 . Dive 10 by 2 , and add this number to 7 and u get attack rating of 12. Most regular swordsman units have attack rating
    9-13 , which is in same category but Nakhakars only get this attack rating with few heavily armored units like cataphracts , if unit has less armor Nakhakars are inferior to regular swordsman infantry, being less in attack and unit size. And i thought this unit is suppose to be an elite, am i missing something here?

    P.S its not just nakhakars , there are others.


  2. #2
    k/t's Avatar Auxiliarius
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    The calculation involving AP doesn't work like you said.

    Still, the unit stats in BC are awful, as you have noticed, which is why some people (including me) have made submods that address that issue.

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    Ichon's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    Some stats could be improved but the AP units still work vs high armor- the main difference in BC is that compared to many other mods armor is a bit lower and defense skill is far higher meaning AP rather than lowering total defense by 50% is only lowering total defense by 15% or something like that if defense is 5 shield, 10 armor, 15 defense skill.

  4. #4
    Miles
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by k/t View Post
    The calculation involving AP doesn't work like you said.

    Still, the unit stats in BC are awful, as you have noticed, which is why some people (including me) have made submods that address that issue.

    Ap means 50% armor penetration is it not?


    Which submod?

    Are you talking about RR/Rc for Broken Crescent?
    Last edited by shogun007; February 16, 2013 at 10:51 PM.


  5. #5
    Miles
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichon View Post
    Some stats could be improved but the AP units still work vs high armor- the main difference in BC is that compared to many other mods armor is a bit lower and defense skill is far higher meaning AP rather than lowering total defense by 50% is only lowering total defense by 15% or something like that if defense is 5 shield, 10 armor, 15 defense skill.

    Yeah ive noticed it, the highest armor rating is 10 which only translates in +5 do damage vs cataphracts and the like.


  6. #6
    Miles
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    Just instaled RR/RC submod looks interesting , gonna try it.


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    k/t's Avatar Auxiliarius
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    When you reach 25 posts you can edit your posts.

    Yes, AP means only half the armour of the enemy is taken into account, but that doesn't add anything to the attack.

  8. #8
    Miles
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    yes it does when enemy has 6 armor rating it adds 3 points when 10 it adds 5.

    Read my post its all there , btw trying your mod atm looks promising , unfortunately nothing done about economy over there, for some factions economy is horrible .


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    k/t's Avatar Auxiliarius
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    Where are you getting this from? You are the first person to say something like this.

    And when it's 9? How much does it add?

    To reiterate: AP doesn't add anything to a unit's attack. It simply causes only half of the enemy's armour value to be used in the calculations.

    The submod is not finished.

  10. #10
    Miles
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    ok ap penetrates armor by 50%. so if an enemy has 8 armor when AP unit fights him it gets +4 attack against that enemy because it penetrates 50% of his armor.

    Submod deals with military affiars and not economy i understand. Still it looks promising.


  11. #11
    gamegeek2's Avatar Sōkō yumi
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    In terms of the battle system's calculations, halving a the amount of the defending unit's armour used in calculations is identical to increasing the attacking unit's attack by the same amount. This is because the chance of a unit landing a kill with a given attack is proportional to 1.1^(Attack-Defense), though cavalry charges seem to work differently for some reason.

  12. #12
    Munifex
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    According to this formula, adding 1 point to attack or defence should be same when fighting in melee, however i did some test and found that defencepoint upgraded spear militias beating attackpoint upgraded spear militias all the time. Where i am wrong?

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    Ichon's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chivalry View Post
    According to this formula, adding 1 point to attack or defence should be same when fighting in melee, however i did some test and found that defencepoint upgraded spear militias beating attackpoint upgraded spear militias all the time. Where i am wrong?
    The +1 of upgrade is a lie. Basically the true upgrade worth is somewhere between 2-2.5 for armor while weapon upgrade is between 1-1.5 and so smaller. Also generally speaking upgrading defense is better in campaign but in testing +1 att or defense all else equal should be the same. In campaign most of the time due to missiles and charge +1 defense results in fewer casualties than +1 attack which only effects unit directly in melee/targeted.

  14. #14
    the man, the myth, the legend's Avatar Hastatus
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    Say the unit your attacking has 12 armour, if the attacking unit has ap its as if the defending units armour is reduced to 6 armour. Am I getting this right?

  15. #15
    Ichon's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    Yes, only armor- shield and defense skill are not affected.

  16. #16
    gamegeek2's Avatar Sōkō yumi
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    Default Re: Most ap units are useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chivalry View Post
    According to this formula, adding 1 point to attack or defence should be same when fighting in melee, however i did some test and found that defencepoint upgraded spear militias beating attackpoint upgraded spear militias all the time. Where i am wrong?
    As duly noted by Ichon, armour upgrades represent +2.5 armour in M2TW while attack upgrades only represent +1 attack. In RTW it works differently, it's +1 either way.

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