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Thread: French-English Rivalry?

  1. #61
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by heil nappy View Post
    Pardon but isn't Savoy part of France? And Eugene was actually born in a hotel in Paris? And isn't his father THE Louis XIV aka Sun King? The last time I played E:TW, Savoy is a region which I believe should be within modern-day France.
    Regarding Eugene, he was culturally mostly french, but his parents were italian nonetheless (and i doubt Louis XIV was his father despite the liaison he COULD have had with Olympe Mancini).

    Former Savoy is nowaday partly in France and partly in Italy. But the french part has been annexed to France only during the italian unification (with Nice, home of Garibaldi) as a reward for french help.

    Before that it was an italian principality, with, being a frontier province, some part of its territory populated by french speaking people.
    IIRC, the dukes and later princes of Savoy were also rather french, culturally speaking, but their history is linked to Italy more than France.

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    Fighting foreigners is the only thing that unifies the English and the French were the obvious target because they were close and had lots of money.
    The English are insecure about their national identity because they have been ruled by foreigners for 1000 years.
    First the Normans, then the French (Plantagenets), then the Welsh (Tudors), then the Scottish (Stuarts), then the Germans (Hanoverians). Even Queen Victoria was German.
    Foreign kings needed to fight foreigners to get the populace behind them. That’s why the English crown didn’t give up its claim to the French crown until the 19th century.

    It’s different now. We don’t need to invade and conquer France to go and live there and we can fight foreigners anywhere on the planet. We also have football.


    Well then i guess they at least did a great job fighting foreigners through the centuries, unlike the french or any other european major power actually.

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  3. #63
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Former Savoy is nowaday partly in France and partly in Italy. But the french part has been annexed to France only during the italian unification (with Nice, home of Garibaldi) as a reward for french help.
    Before that it was an italian principality, with, being a frontier province, some part of its territory populated by french speaking people.
    IIRC, the dukes and later princes of Savoy were also rather french, culturally speaking, but their history is linked to Italy more than France.
    V and VI century, the current Savoy area was part of the Burgonde Kingdom, then VII-VIII century integrated in the Frankish kingdom (then empire), as part of the Burgondie province.
    During 900,1100 it was part of the Kingdom of Bourgogne (and so part of the Holy Roman Empire). In 1091 Humbert II becomes count. He is from the house of Savoy, with an origin in Maurienne, a valley in present day France. At some point the house got Piemont in marriage, but when Humbert II became count he lost it.
    It expanded later to control more territories in current day France, and the other side of the alps in Northern Italy, south toward the sea with Nice. It became a Duchy in 1416, and in 1418 the Piemont was attached to the Duchy of Savoy (this is roughly the Golden Age of Savoy), and it was both side of the alps, in France and Italy. It was not "French" or "Italian", but half French (west part) and half Italian (east part). With the French pressure, Savoy lost territories in the west, but gain more in the east. Emmanuel-Philibert transfered the capitale from Chambéry to Torino.
    In 1713, the Duke of Savoy became king of Sicily, but exchanged that with Sardinia, and so Charles Emmanuel III was king of Sardinia, Duke of Savoy and Prince of Piemont.At that time, Savoy had its largest territory, incuding a good part of French alps, from Switzerland down to Nice, the Italian Piemonte and Sardinia.

    The actual Savoy (part of the kingdom) had a community of language and culture with France. So in 1792, king Victor-Amédée III sided with Louis XVI, but the people of Savoy choose the Revolutionary side, and threw the king's army out of Chambery. 3 communes voted independance, 77 blank, and 568 for annexion to France. None to go back to Piemonte.

    Actullay, Savoy started from current France, expanded to Italy, but this was not really an integrated state, it kept two distinct parts.

    So no, Savoy was not an Italian principality, no more than Piemont was a French duchy. And beside, it's not a part of Italy that took a French speaking part on the west of the alps. It's the opposite: the French speaking part west of the alps (although at the time it was not really speaking French anyway) expanded in Northern Italy, but as some point the center of the state of Savoy shifted toward Italy, to the point where the people of the current Savoy felt closer to France than to their own king who was "too italianized".

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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    I'm English and i've always seen the rivalry as there, but not in a serious way. More a jovial way, alike the Australians and English at cricket for example.

    I've always found if the nation can have the prefix of bloody, for instance "bloody French" it's generally not a serious rivalry.
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Why bother being offended for others?
    I care because my ancestors (at least those from part of my mom) fought and died fighting for France and their weren't cowards.

    I care bacause I think that French troops brought the words 'Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité' in all the European, and also in Italy. Those soldiers were from everywhere (also from Italy) and died for Napoleon , and they weren't cowards.

    I care because I love France, I love French Language, I love France History and I love the French role in Europe.

    In the end, I find that the jokes based on concepts like 'cowardly' about the French soldiers, idiotic jokes, jokes of bad taste, and in my opinion these jokes are not only false but also insulting the memory of thousands and thousands of men who died with honour fighting for France.

    France suffered many defeats, but I find there is more honour in some defeats than is some victories.....but this is only an opinion by a Savoyard of South West so it is probably meaningless, and they are happy with these jokes so probably the true British here are the French.....

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    There is lots of equality when ruled by an EMPEROR who instead of overthrowing monarquies and placing a republic he just switches it for his brothers (e.g spain). I guess the french stereotype is due to 1940, which was quite humiliating, and the vichy french even more, probably the most humilating thing suffered by all major powers in all time (the vichy government).
    Last edited by Wulfburk; February 23, 2013 at 04:10 PM.

    "If they can prevent me from going as an Emperor, they cannot
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    - Dom Pedro II during the Paraguayan invasion of Brazil.

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  7. #67
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Yes France was defeated in 1940. But so were the British who could evacuate at Dunkerque... a good part because French soldiers tried their best to keep the Germans at bay while the British got back on their boat.
    And French soldiers fought: 360,000 casualties in one month. They were defeated because they were not prepared for this war and the generals stategy, not because they were coward.
    But then look at later action like Bir Hakeim and you'll see how wrong it is.

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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfburk View Post
    There is lots of equality when ruled by an EMPEROR who instead of overthrowing monarquies and placing a republic he just switches it for his brothers (e.g spain). I guess the french stereotype is due to 1940, which was quite humiliating, and the vichy french even more, probably the most humilating thing suffered by all major powers in all time (the vichy government).
    This is mainly a British point of view, Napoleon and the French armies brought with them the ideas of the French Revoluion everywhere in Europe, all the liberal Revolutions of the XIX century, the facts of 1820/'21, then those of 1831, the the European revolutions of 1848, than the Italian Wars that unified the Nation of 1860/61, then the Commune de Paris of 1870, all these Liberal revolutions are based on the legacy of the French Revolution, and Britain always played his 'democratic' role against this Liberal Revolutions, always with the Old European Order, always defending the disgusting Aristocratic model defeated by the French Revolution, this is the reason why I wrote that I see more Glory in some French Defeats than in some Reactionary Victories.

    Was Napoleon a dictator an ogre as many still think? No, IMO he saved the Revolution and he brought its seeds in all Europe, from Belgium to Spain, from Italy to Poland, from Germany to Ungary. The French soldiers fought with honour and (true) Glory against the Reaction and the disgusting European Clerical and Aristocratic Ancien Regime!

    About the Nazis occupation, what to say?
    Five (5) years occupied by the Nazis!!!!! France isn't a nice Island floating in the Atlantic, France fought against the most deadly and horrible war machine ever seen in Europe!
    Was Vichy a shame? to answer this, try to imagine not being on your nice island floating in the Atlantic but in France in 1940: You have the Nazi beasts occupying your country and you need to save the State, the whole Nation from these assasins you need to find someone to deal with them, and so did Petain the traitor!
    Am I trying to defend Vichy? No, not of course! But 5 years of Nazi Occupation are a horror from which only the water of the English Channel saved Britain, so I think that instead of talking of the French shame we should talk of the pains suffered by the French people, of the deads, of all the horror of those long, very long five (5) years of Resistance fighting against the Nazi scum!!!

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    René Artois's Avatar Praefectus Castrorum
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    this is the reason why I wrote that I see more Glory in some French Defeats than in some Reactionary Victories.
    No, the reason is because you're obviously massively biased towards France. Keep your posts up though, very entertaining stuff.

    I wish Britain had experienced something as gloriously freedom-bringing as the French Revolution though. All those executions and arrests must have really let people know they had true liberty. All Britain had was a rubbishy great charter, ensuring the king could not do what he wanted unimpeded, which led directly to parliaments in which the commons were even involved.
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    Im not saying the 1940 defeat was disgraceful, but the forming of a goverment that sympathized with germany and turned its back on its former ally, basically a puppet state (although not formally so i think), was quite disgraceful. The french government was given the choice to become a GiE or go to africa, to assist the UK in, later, liberating france, but it chosed otherwise. But the free french, and the last stand at bir hakeim, as well as all the french troops in the allied armies later on is quite something the french should be proud of. And it wasnt the channel who saved britain, it was the royal navy and the royal air force that kept it safe.

    Although napoleon did bring many ideas of the revolution to his conquers, he failed to apply them, WHY did he just replace the spanish monarchy? How is that connected to the French ideas? Was his brother any better than the spanish king? Why did he replaced it in the first place? It was his only ally, that was his biggest blunder the whole war, he was full of enemies and he wanted his only useful ally to become an enemy as well. If his real intent was to spread the revolution he would have brought a republic to all the states he conquered. But he didnt. Although Britain wasnt fighting for "democracy" and whatever, she did kept the independency of all the states she fought with or against. It didnt turned its back on Portugal, and it helped alot the spanish on forcing the french out from Iberia (Although in wars there is no such thing as bad guys good guys, the -more- bad guys in the peninsular war was DEFINETLY the french)

    "If they can prevent me from going as an Emperor, they cannot
    prevent me from abdicating and going as a Fatherland Volunteer"
    - Dom Pedro II during the Paraguayan invasion of Brazil.

    War In Our Doorstep (LOTR_TW Rohan AAR )
    A Cobra Vai Fumar! (Brazilian HoI 3 TFH AAR)
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  11. #71
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post

    I care bacause I think that French troops brought the words 'Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité' in all the European, and also in Italy.
    Oh yes, ever so much "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" brought at the point of a rifle and imposed under a monarch directly related to Napoleon himself. You want the modern freedom of Europe, look to the Parliamentary democracy that fought Napoleon.

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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Was Napoleon a dictator an ogre as many still think? No, IMO he saved the Revolution and he brought its seeds in all Europe, from Belgium to Spain, from Italy to Poland, from Germany to Ungary. The French soldiers fought with honour and (true) Glory against the Reaction and the disgusting European Clerical and Aristocratic Ancien Regime!
    I was waiting for you to end this quote with something like "in an attempt to impose French domination from Lisbon to Moscow." All Europe saw was tyranny in a different guise.

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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus Pasha View Post
    I was waiting for you to end this quote with something like "in an attempt to impose French domination from Lisbon to Moscow." All Europe saw was tyranny in a different guise.
    Beacuse you look at the matter from a British perspective, instead I look at the matter form a more continental perspective, it's easy.

    The Napoleonic regimes were tyrannies, but their values, the values of secularism of the state and citizenship, the values for which the European peoples had the right to live in states built on the basis of their collective identities and not on the Divine Right of Aristocracy and Clergy, are the values of the modern European Nations.


    The whole History of the Democracy in Continental Europe, as to say the history of the XIX, was developed following the ideals and the values of the French Revolution and sadly in all the European battles for the Constitution, the Parliament and the Democracy, Britain was always on the other side, Britain always fought alongside and supported the reaction, the Ancien Regime, the most disgusting and corrupt Aristocratic governements, Britain always supported the old Monarchies and their clerical states; this is the history of Europe, looking at it from inside the Continent and not from a beautiful island floating in the Atlantic.

    Also the USA had to fight Britain to found their Republic, and the USA were allies of Napoleon during the Napoleonic wars, this is an interesting point I think: The first Anglosaxon Democratic Republic of the modern world fought against Britain to exist, USA supported the worse enemy of Britain, Napoleon, because they probably were able to see the difference between the French Model and the European Reactionary Monarchies.
    Sadly Britain was unable to see this difference.

    So the French soldiers died at Waterloo are Heroes, and their Flag, is a Flag of Freedom, but of course, this is only the irrilevant opinion of Diocle, a citoyen Jacobin, of the République Cisalpine Italienne, who would has been honoured to fight in the last army of the Emperor at Watorloo (as many Italians actually did for voluntary choice), and who would has been very honoured being in the last square of the Grognards of the Old Guard.
    Again, in my not humble opinion, there is more Humanity, Faith, Honour and Glory among the men who died in that last square, than in thousands of meaningless reactionary victories.

    Toujours Vive la France!

    Last edited by Diocle; February 25, 2013 at 06:50 AM.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Beacuse you look at the matter from a British perspective
    Are you making the baseless assumption of British bias? Did Napoleon not attempt to impose French domination on pretty much all of Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    The Napoleonic regimes were tyrannies, but their values, the values of secularism of the state and citizenship, the values for which the European peoples had the right to live in states built on the basis of their collective identities and not on the Divine Right of Aristocracy and Clergy, are the values of the modern European Nations.
    Not something that had its origins in the French Revolutionary ideals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    The whole History of the Democracy in Continental Europe, as to say the history of the XIX, was developed following the ideals and the values of the French Revolution and sadly in all the European battles for the Constitution, the Parliament and the Democracy, Britain was always on the other side, Britain always fought alongside and supported the reaction, the Ancien Regime, the most disgusting and corrupt Aristocratic governements, Britain always supported the old Monarchies and their clerical states; this is the history of Europe, looking at it from inside the Continent and not from a beautiful island floating in the Atlantic.
    I'm replying in simple terms here as I don't really have time to go into detail, and I know others have a better grasp of the politics of the era than I do. However, didn't Revolutionary France declare war on all those "corrupt old Monarchies" first (even if armed intervention may have been likely anyway)?. As for Britain, she was looking primarily after her own interests (as she has always done on the continent). When Revolutionary France resolved to invade the Low Countries and force regime change in the Netherlands, Britain acted to prevent French access to the Channel and North Sea ports as they could be used as bases for invasion of the British Isles. The defence of the Low Countries was at that time (and up to WWII) seen as an extension of the defence of Britain itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Also the USA had to fight Britain to found their Republic, and the USA were allies of Napoleon during the Napoleonic wars, this is an interesting point I think: The first Anglosaxon Democratic Republic of the modern world fought against Britain to exist, USA supported the worse enemy of Britain, Napoleon, because they probably were able to see the difference between the French Model and the European Reactionary Monarchies.
    Sadly Britain was unable to see this difference.
    Rubbish. Prior to 1812 the US had resolved to adopt a position of neutrality in the conflict between France and Britain. The conflict between the United States and Britain had little to do with Napoleon and French Revolutionary ideals and more to do with trade restrictions, the impressment of American sailors by the Royal Navy, British support for hostile Native American tribes, the prospect of territorial expansion and a smattering of pride and honour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    So the French soldiers died at Waterloo are Heroes, and their Flag, is a Flag of Freedom, but of course, this is only the irrilevant opinion of Diocle, a citoyen Jacobin, of the République Cisalpine Italienne
    Yes indeed.
    Last edited by Erebus Pasha; February 25, 2013 at 07:45 AM.

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    Diocle's Avatar Centurio Primus Pilus
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus Pasha
    Not something that had its origins in the French Revolutionary ideals.
    Citizenship and Constitution and National Identities are Values of the French Revolution, here is not the Jacobin who speaks but the European citizen with some good readings, a bit of knowledge of European History and also a bit of political consciousness.

    Britain acted during the XIX always against the Democracy on the Continent, again this isn't an opinion but a historical fact, Britain always supported the most disgusting Aristocratic regimes of the Continent: Ask to Hungarians, Czechoslovakians, Germans, Italian, Polish, Belgians, and why not Spanish! Britain always supported the old order, the so called 'ancien regime'....and this in my not humble opinion cannot be called fighting for Democracy.

    About the men who died with honour at Waterloo, I find Humanity, Faith, Heroism and Glory in them....but I see that not all are thinking the same....

    Well! Who cares, in the end they won! Europe is Republican and Democratic today, and the Republic isn't a British gift for sure.

    Toujours vive la France, vive la Revolution et vive la Republique!

    Do I bore you if I send a new beautiful Revolutionary song? Please tell me to stop before reporting, and I'll stop!

    but here we have a wonderful Edit Piaf and the song is so revolutionary, it is the voice of Europe........so:

    Edith Piaf- Le ça ira-1953

    " Ah ça ira ça ira ça ira
    Les aristocrates à la lanterne
    Ah ça ira ça ira ça ira
    Les aristocrates on les pendra

    ...........
    Le châtiment pour vous s'apprête
    Car le peuple reprend ses droits
    Vous vous êtes bien payé nos têtes
    C'en est fini Messieurs les rois
    Il n' faut plus compter sur les nôtres
    On va s'offrir maint'nant les vôtres
    Car c'est nous qui faisons la loi"




    Last edited by Diocle; February 25, 2013 at 08:26 AM.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Britain acted during the XIX always against the Democracy on the Continent, again this isn't an opinion but a historical fact, Britain always supported the most disgusting Aristocratic regimes of the Continent: Ask to Hungarians, Czechoslovakians, Germans, Italian, Polish, Belgians, and why not Spanish! Britain always supported the old order, the so called 'ancien regime'....and this in my not humble opinion cannot be called fighting for Democracy.
    What Britain did, and has always done, was to safeguard British interests and to maintain the balance of power in Europe. In the early nineteenth century that meant preventing Napoleonic France from achieving hegemony over all of Europe.

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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus Pasha View Post
    What Britain did, and has always done, was to safeguard British interests and to maintain the balance of power in Europe. In the early nineteenth century that meant preventing Napoleonic France from achieving hegemony over all of Europe.
    Doing so, Britain always fought against the Hope, against the Freedom, against the Repubblican Values of the European peoples, always with the Aristocratic/Clerical Regimes, always on the other side, always against the rights of the European peoples!


    In the long terms I find this choice quite catastrophic also for Britain I think.
    Retarding the process of change in Europe was probably a form of cynical cunning but when you have the most important Nations still to build in 1870, you cannot complain for milions of deads in 1914 and 1939.

    What I want to say is that the choice in favour of the Ancien Regimes was smart on the moment, but without perpective for the future. One of the main characteristic of the France politics is that frequently France has been able to understand the European Continent and to give voice to his hopes, while Britain is floating in the Ocean.....and this is really sad!

    The last one, I swear! This is the 'Carmagnole' a wonderful song, 'madame veto' is a character still present today in Europe!:


  18. #78
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Doing so, Britain always fought against the Hope, against the Freedom, against the Repubblican Values of the European peoples, always with the Aristocratic/Clerical Regimes, always on the other side, always against the rights of the European peoples!
    Morals don't really come into it. Britain generally fought against France, as the latter (whether ruled by a monarchy or by "enlightened and freedom loving" republicans) on numerous occasions attempted to gain hegemony over it's neighbours and as a result was perceived to be a threat to British interests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    In the long terms I find this choice quite catastrophic also for Britain I think.
    Retarding the process of change in Europe was probably a form of cynical cunning but when you have the most important Nations still to build in 1870, you cannot complain for milions of deads in 1914 and 1939.
    You can't really lay the sole blame for that on Britain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    The last one, I swear! This is the 'Carmagnole' a wonderful song, 'madame veto' is a character still present today in Europe!:
    You're wasting your time on me as it's not really my sort of thing.

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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    I've always found the twin currents of Francophilia/Anglophilia and Francophoby/Anglophoby intriguing. It seems to me that they really arrived on the scene during the 18th century. On the one hand you had the obvious animosities - John Bull, French dogs, les rosbifs, frogs etc. - but on the other you have quite an undercurrent of amicability and rapprochement, such as English gentlemen travelling to Paris in order to buy more stylish and modern French suits, or the Philosophes des Lumières praising the English political establishment and system. I think that nowadays this rapprochement is all the more evident, with - as Ferrets and heil nappy mentioned - London being colonized by the French, and various areas of (mostly southern) France receiving much the same attention from Brits, as well as Paris of course. I was in the south of France last summer, and this old lady at an inn where we were having dinner complained because there were only two French families left in the village, with all of the rest being English and a handful of Dutch. My brother and I also encountered a baker who heard us speaking English and went "Ah, you English. We kicked you out back in the 15th century, and now you're invading us again!" which pretty-much sums up the mood of Anglo-French jabs outside of historical debate places in which both sides tend to display their complexes all to readily. Also, I think that French people idealize the countryside English life more than they let on...

    I also agree that the rivalry is more of a British thing than a French one. The French have neighbours and historical rivals in lots of places, the British just have those dudes across the channel to...channel their prejudices against (sssh that was funny).
    Last edited by Squid Girl; February 25, 2013 at 09:50 AM.
    Previously Inkie Pie.
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  20. #80
    Atterdag's Avatar Knus zionismen!
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Well! Who cares, in the end they won! Europe is Republican and Democratic today, and the Republic isn't a British gift for sure.
    Spain, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and the United Kingdom are all constitutional monarchies so painting all of Europe in the colour of republicanism isn't quite right.
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    Сканија је Данска

    عیسی پسر مریم گفت :' جهان است پل ، عبور بیش از آن است ، اما هیچ ساخت خانه بر آن او امیدوار است که برای یک روز ، ممکن است برای ابدیت امیدواریم ، اما ماندگار جهان اما ساعت آن را صرف در دعا و نماز برای استراحت است نهان


    All of the Balkans is not worth the bones of a single Pomeranian grenadier.
    Otto von Bismarck


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