French-English Rivalry?

[Keyser]

It's true that from our side of the pond, it looks like the brits are the ones who are really into it... (Judging by the forums and the tabloids )

We even have some kind of britanophily or anglophily going on regularly, our liberals loved the british model (until recently when they all became germanophiles), people from the medias, music and fashion are still in love with the swinging London (who also enjoy quite the reputation as a city, don't really know why though, it's nice, but we have Paris... ;p )
The only thing for wich i have heard people complaining about the brits recently (a few years ago) was because they buy houses everywhere in France when they retire. It's rather good for the rural economy of the areas where they live, excepted for one thing, the rising prices for housing well above what young people from the area can afford.

[Londinium]

The only thing for wich i have heard people complaining about the brits recently (a few years ago) was because they buy houses everywhere in France when they retire. It's rather good for the rural economy of the areas where they live, excepted for one thing, the rising prices for housing well above what young people from the area can afford.

Just be glad the Costa del Sol isn't in France We're pretty bad for invading quiet French villages and buying up farmhouses to retire in but we've practically colonised the Spanish coastline in the search for a little bit of sun

[René Artois]

Is it just me or does this rivalry exist more in the heads of the English than in the French's?

Living at the French border and working with quite a few French people, none of them ever bring it up.

To be honest I've never really encountered it at all, at least no more than any other bordering nations. You mostly seem to get the whole thing about making fun of the French army/French military history, mostly by young teenagers and middle aged men who don't like foreign people (the kind of people who think it's normal to start a sentence with "I'm not racist but...").

[bradavies]

The French Military thing seems to be more American than British. Whenever I've heard it mentioned it's by a Yank, and I've barely ever heard a Brit talk about it, save for Jeremy Clarkson.

[heil nappy]

To be honest I've never really encountered it at all, at least no more than any other bordering nations. You mostly seem to get the whole thing about making fun of the French army/French military history, mostly by young teenagers and middle aged men who don't like foreign people (the kind of people who think it's normal to start a sentence with "I'm not racist but...").

True. People who say that the French are cowards ought to beaten up really badly. They've probably never heard of de Guesclin, Luxemborg, Maurice de Saxe, Eugene of Savoy (yes, he fought for the Austrians but is still French all the same. Too bad Louis XVI didn't recognise his potential), Montcalm (one should at least admit that before Quebec, he did quite well in the French and Indian War), Lally (poor guy, teamed up with a nincompoop of an admiral), Lafayette (America's favourite Frenchman), Napoleon, Davout, Massena, Ney, Murat, Lannes, Bernadotte (traitor?) and perhaps Lerlerc. This anti-French jokes are mostly a result of France's refusal to participate in the Iraq War, a rather good choice actually. And I've also read somewhere before that the French military is actually one of the most successful in the world.

[bradavies]

It is, people who say otherwise seem to think the only war ever was WW2. I'm sure everyone on this forum at least is smart enough to know otherwise.

[René Artois]

It's also due to how pretty much all of the famous English/British victories were against the French. Crecy, Poitiers, Agincourt, the Nile, Salamance, Trafalgar, Waterloo etc. Plus not many English people would have heard of ones such as Bouvines, Chataeu Gaillard, Gandamak, the English Armada, Islandlwanaetc. They say nationalism is dying out but British schoolkids never learn about our defeats, other than 1066. Even King John's losses are just dismissed because he was the inept "Bad King John".

[heil nappy]

It's also due to how pretty much all of the famous English/British victories were against the French. Crecy, Poitiers, Agincourt, the Nile, Salamance, Trafalgar, Waterloo etc. Plus not many English people would have heard of ones such as Bouvines, Chataeu Gaillard, Gandamak, the English Armada, Islandlwanaetc. They say nationalism is dying out but British schoolkids never learn about our defeats, other than 1066. Even King John's losses are just dismissed because he was the inept "Bad King John".

True, it's said that it's impossible to find an old Brit regiment that has never fought a battle against the French. After all, most English heroes are soldiers who just enjoyed beating up French people verbally, mentally or physically: Henry V, Marlborough, James Wolfe, Nelson, Wellington and Churchill (described de Gaulle as "Fascist minded, opportunist, unscrupulous, ambitious to the last degree...his coming to power in the new France would lead to a considerable estrangement between France and the Western democracies"). Anyway, on to WWII, it was mostly a matter of leadership that brought about the Fall of France. The bigshots had some what of the Vauban mentality, putting all their hope in thinking that the Germans would somehow attack the Manginot line frontally. The French soldiers could in fact fight bravely and while the armour of French tanks is somewhat mediocre compared to the Germans, their guns were actually extremely powerful. Shame to see people making the French look like a bunch of surrender monkeys.

[Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert]

You forgot some wars that happened in South America as well, the french took one side and the british supported the other. But well, that rivalry all is due to the claim on the French Crown the british had for a long time, even after Monarchy was abolished in France, and they were made to sign a document giving up any pretension on the french politics, bad relations that dated so many time won't simply disappear like a bloody sweep of wind.

[Keyser]

@heil nappy

The relationship between De Gaule and Churchill is more complex than what this quote would lead to believe. I think they had (some) respect for each other.
But they didn't have exactly the same long term goals (or rather they did in fact, make of their country a power in the post-war world, they didn't have the same strategy for that and De Gaule had to work in a position of inferiority regarding the other allied power, so he needed to push strongly and bluff).

As to french tanks in WW2, armour was one of their strongpoint compared to german tanks. They lacked in some design areas though, no radios, too few crew members per tanks, no electric turrets etc.

[heil nappy]

As to french tanks in WW2, armour was one of their strongpoint compared to german tanks. They lacked in some design areas though, no radios, too few crew members per tanks, no electric turrets etc.

Hehe. I was actually basing this on my World of Tanks knowledge. My ARL 44 has an awesome gun capable of shredding a King Tiger but its side armour is paper thin. Some of the experimental French tanks are quite cool though. The AMX 40 with its rounded body and turret and the ELC AMX with its breathtaking speed and maneuverability plus its impressive gun. I presume you meant that the German tanks that you were comparing with the French are mostly the light Pz38(t)?

[Keyser]

Yes, early war model.

Pz35 and 38, Pz I, II, III, even IV were lightly armored compared to most of their french equivalent (infantry tanks and the real cavalry tanks (compared to the tankettes and armore car they used before) like the SOMUA S35) in 1939-1940.

The ARL 44 was developped in secret during the occupation and wasn't used in large numbers and mostly post-ww2.
The AMX40 was an impressive design for the period, but it never came close to being produced. (The Char G1 was interesting too)

The french tank of 1940 were more antiquitated (B1 bis, R35, R39, Somua S35 etc) but overall more armoured than the german models.
And the anti-tank gun that equiped the B1 bis and S35 was the nec-plus ultra of anti-tank gun at this stage of the war despite its light caliber.

[Diocle]

Eugene of Savoy (yes, he fought for the Austrians but is still French all the same.

Eugenio di Savoia was from Savoia not French!!!
He was a memeber of the Savoia Family.

Being Piedmontese for mom's part I feel the difference between France and Savoia, the war cray of the Piedmontese and Italian army was for centuries: 'Savoia!'

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Steph]

I'm French, and was born and grew up in Savoy by the way.

I think now the French and English are going rather well. When we have rivalry, it's more banter than anything else.

The big difference is usally when I see a Brit makign fun at the French on a forum, I know it's a kind of joke and he don't really mean it, I can try to outwit him and answer, he usually also know it's a joke, and we try to make fun at each other.

While when Americans are bashing the French (for Americans who do, I don't want to imply that they all do that), I have the feeling it's not a joke and they are indeed seriously meaning it.

And now, I don't feel rivalry with the Germans. They have been our worse ennemies during 3 wars and 70 years, but now we are buddies.

[Erebus Pasha]

It's also due to how pretty much all of the famous English/British victories were against the French. Crecy, Poitiers, Agincourt, the Nile, Salamance, Trafalgar, Waterloo etc. Plus not many English people would have heard of ones such as Bouvines, Chataeu Gaillard, Gandamak, the English Armada, Islandlwanaetc. They say nationalism is dying out but British schoolkids never learn about our defeats, other than 1066. Even King John's losses are just dismissed because he was the inept "Bad King John".

My memories of school are becoming hazy now I'm getting older but I don't remember being brought up on a diet of great British victories. I have vague recollections of studying the Romans, the Vikings, Feudalism, the Tudors and the Civil War but not Agincourt and Trafalgar.

[bradavies]

Same here Erebus. In fact 1066 probably took up about a 1/4 of my entire history teachings in school.

[Diocle]

As an observer I can understand the jokes, the fun and whatever but frequently here on TWC I've read Brit posts in which the joke was really...how to say?....Heavy?...Very, very, very heavy and alsmost.....insulting, I can understand the joke and the fun, but words as 'cowardly' are words quite heavy to use in a joke, expecially when one is talking about an entire nation and about men who always died heroically without cowardly for centuries and centuries on thousands of battlefields, but I'm only an observer, more deployed on the French side of course, but still only an observer.

Anyway now a silly border divides in two part the ancient Duchy of Savoia, so being on the souther edge of the mountains, I don't answer anything when I read those so called 'jokes', but I feel that my ancestors probably are shaking in their graves.

[Ferrets54]

Why bother being offended for others?

[heil nappy]

Eugenio di Savoia was from Savoia not French!!!
He was a memeber of the Savoia Family.

Being Piedmontese for mom's part I feel the difference between France and Savoia, the war cray of the Piedmontese and Italian army was for centuries: 'Savoia!'

Pardon but isn't Savoy part of France? And Eugene was actually born in a hotel in Paris? And isn't his father THE Louis XIV aka Sun King? The last time I played E:TW, Savoy is a region which I believe should be within modern-day France.

[Vizsla]

Fighting foreigners is the only thing that unifies the English and the French were the obvious target because they were close and had lots of money.
The English are insecure about their national identity because they have been ruled by foreigners for 1000 years.
First the Normans, then the French (Plantagenets), then the Welsh (Tudors), then the Scottish (Stuarts), then the Germans (Hanoverians). Even Queen Victoria was German.
Foreign kings needed to fight foreigners to get the populace behind them. That’s why the English crown didn’t give up its claim to the French crown until the 19th century.

It’s different now. We don’t need to invade and conquer France to go and live there and we can fight foreigners anywhere on the planet. We also have football.