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Thread: French-English Rivalry?

  1. #81
    Keyser's Avatar Pili
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Oh yes, ever so much "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" brought at the point of a rifle and imposed under a monarch directly related to Napoleon himself. You want the modern freedom of Europe, look to the Parliamentary democracy that fought Napoleon.
    How much of those rifles were pointed because of foreign ingerence toward the revolution though ?

    How much of the violence was because of the violence the ennemy of the revolution were ready for ?

    Not saying the republican were all saints and heroes, but frankly, this is exactly the kind of situation that escalate because of both sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus Pasha View Post
    Did Napoleon not attempt to impose French domination on pretty much all of Europe?

    Could he have done it without the wars against France ? Could he have come to power without the war ?
    Last edited by Keyser; February 25, 2013 at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Exactly, both sides were to blame, napoleon wasnt a hero.

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    Diocle's Avatar Centurio Primus Pilus
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus Pasha
    You're wasting your time on me as it's not really my sort of thing.
    I never thought to you posting good Revolutionary songs, be sure Erebus!

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulfbruk
    napoleon wasnt a hero.
    Do this: Take a French Flag then, holding it lead an infantry charge from the first line, against the Austrian infantry as did Napoleon at Arcole........if not an hero, not a coward for sure.



    Ah, forgetting! Being there, win also at Rivoli, Lodi, Cairo Montenotte, Castiglione, Marengo conquest Italy, then win at Austerlitz and..........nothing! Sorry! I always forget that this.......is not your music!
    Last edited by Diocle; February 25, 2013 at 04:29 PM.

  4. #84
    Erebus Pasha's Avatar vezir-i âzam
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keyser View Post
    How much of those rifles were pointed because of foreign ingerence toward the revolution though ?

    How much of the violence was because of the violence the ennemy of the revolution were ready for ?

    Not saying the republican were all saints and heroes, but frankly, this is exactly the kind of situation that escalate because of both sides.



    Could he have done it without the wars against France ? Could he have come to power without the war ?
    Oh certainly he was a product of the conflicts that raged on between France and her enemies between 1792 and 1815, however I dispute that his objectives were pure and were solely the result of hostility from external forces.

    I dispute your first statement in response to Ferrets though, as although the monarchies of Europe were hostile to the Revolution they were indecisive in regards to how they should respond. However, it was the French that made the first move by declaring war on Austria and then invading the Low Countries, Germany and Piedmont.

    @Diocle - you do know that Napoleon never actually seized the flag on the bridge yes?
    Last edited by Erebus Pasha; February 25, 2013 at 05:48 PM.

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  5. #85
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    The french emigrates intrigued, the king himself intrigued to provoke an intervention and Léopold answered with the Pillnitz declaration... Sure, you are right they were indecisive. Pillnitz in truth is a proof of indecisiveness, but they threatened nonetheless (a good rule to follow is that you shouldn't threaten someone if you aren't ready to follow with your threats, they could take you seriously) and helped the emigrates to raise military forces, in the austrian netherlands and along the Rhine principalities (and wait where else too ? Hmm Piemont...).

    Also, if we are to relativise the threat represented by the Empire and the other monarchies, then maybe we should look at how, for all the horrors they are credited with, the montagnards and Robespierre were AGAINST the war.

    As strange as that may sound with the insight and how the situation evolved, most of the names involved with the terror and often with other excess of the revolution (such as exporting it with guns) were the democrats and they didn't want the war. But once it was done, they did all that was needed to win. That's quite sad that what they are mostly remembered for is this (that the revolution had to take those steps too).

    Ferret also spoke about the influence of the parliamentary democracy that fought Napoléon. Wich one ? I don't know any.
    The United Kingdom was a rather free society (especially compared to continental europe) that's true and a parliamentary regime, but "democracy" stretchs it a bit far (at least until a latter period).

    War and the terror to fight the counter-revolution meant it was never applied (and i know what that mean regarding the difference between ideals and reality), but the constitution of 1793 IS democratic, there never was a more democratic constitution in french history. The fact it never was enforced is one of the things i regret the most regarding the revolution.

    By the way, the british should know from first hand that a revolution, to be won, as to be fought firmly and how that means it can be highjacked by ambitious of all kinds and military heroes especially...
    Magna Carta or not.

    As to Napoléon, i know his objectives weren't pure, he was ambitious and an opportunist.
    He betrayed the revolution with his crowns (even if he did bring with his administration and consolidated, the modernisation bought by the revolutionnary reforms...)

    But i find hard to believe he plotted to submit the whole of europe from the start...

    He was able to threaten to do it only because of the many wars launched against him (or rather France).

    His intent was certainly a french hegemony, but he also wanted to integrate himself among the european dynasties and create regular diplomatic ties with his ennemies.
    Napoléon made many peaces and launched only two war (to enforce the continental blockade among allies that did not respect their engagment in this regard).
    I am not trying to make him a saint, his conditions were quite harsh, but they were harsher with each failed attempt against France...
    Last edited by Keyser; February 25, 2013 at 08:21 PM.

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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    The English hate the French because for centuries they were a cultural backwater living France's shadow. Many English Kings tried to become Kings of France but I don't know of any French Kings who wanted to be King of England because it was a backward hole.

    The French in turn hate the English because the English did better in the 19th century with their Empire and money and so on.

    This nasty mutual dislike is of course part of a background level of racism that prevails in Europe. As an Aussie I'm well aware of our reputation as racists, but I was stunned by the sheer enormity of racist vitriol ogf the Englishmen I when I was living in London. They hate the blacks, the Jews, the French, the Germans, the Irish, there was a nasty stereotypoe for almost anyone you could meet. I'd say the blacks were hated the most.

    Among my few French and German friends and acquaintances, its the Franco-German hatred that counts. The French seem to dislike the English but not as much as the English hate them.

    Most Eurpoeans seem to love us Aussies, little do they know our true natures.
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    The nature of the UK/France rivalry is entirely dependent on the people you are comparing. For some it's irrelevant and a source of mutual humor, for others it's still a "serious" matter.

    In fact this thread demonstrates this quite aptly.
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    By the end of the Napoleonic Wars France's attempt at European hegemony essentially had been ended (something similar happened to germany in the 20 the century but far more bloody
    So Germany is not the main hegeom in Europe nowadays, followed by France?

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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Dear Diocle and Erebus Pasha, just because this is TOTAL WAR Centre doesn't mean both of you can go off arguing in this thread which is about Anglo-French relations, not Napoleon. You can go argue in another thread. Now, onto the original discussion, it's a known fact that Voltaire loved England very much (the only thing he'd against it was that apparently, Oxford professors spoke Latin with a horrid accent) and in the mid-18th century, made London a popular French tourist destination. However, French tourists' accounts weren't that rosy. Anne-Marie du Bocage expressed her horror, "Their so-called palaces are nothing more than large houses in Paris and their bedrooms have almost no armchairs!" (!) At least she was honest when she wrote about her visit to the theatre ,"One of their favourite stage characters is a ridiculous Frenchman. With his face powder, his snuffbox, his watch, his box of beauty spots always at the ready and the endless bowing, he seems terribly caricatured. But then gradually we realise it is all too lifelike." Pierre-Jean Grosley said that even though he avoided dressing like a Frenchman (the French have the outstanding ability to be as inconspicuous as a ballerina in a team of rugby players), he was "showered with insults through which I slipped, thanking God I din't understand English." He then continued that by the Thames ,"20 boatmen stopped work, lined up and assailed me with every horror in the English language." (A "kind" English friend translated). He does try to defend his English tormenters though. It's not because that he was French, but "they elbow you off the pavement and push you into the mud - it is because the English are very punctual, and are therefore in a hurry to get to their appointments on time." Really...?
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    His mistake was to walk by the Thames, the boatmen and their pasengers were famous for their ripping insults and habitually exchanged all sorts of purple language.

    The English certainly made mock of the French for their manners, as the American British did of their European British masters.
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Domen123 View Post
    So Germany is not the main hegeom in Europe nowadays, followed by France?
    A hegemon is usually defined as a country without competition so you adding France as next in line already answers this. In relative power germany might be first among European states but it is hardly in its own league so it certainly isn't a hegemon.
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    Diocle's Avatar Centurio Primus Pilus
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangalore View Post
    A hegemon is usually defined as a country without competition so you adding France as next in line already answers this. In relative power germany might be first among European states but it is hardly in its own league so it certainly isn't a hegemon.
    Might we say that France is able to imagine Europe more than Germany? That is: Germany views Europe as an extension of Germany itself, while France builds a more European vision?

    If only Britain wish to do the same.....but living on an island is a beautiful mental condition, but also insulating ...

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    ♔Oggie♔'s Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Might I suggest the book "1000 years of annoying the French" by Stephen Clarke.
    Of course it is not meant to be serious (at least I did not took it seriously) but at least it's quite fun to read.
    The book is a fine example of the still existing rivalries between the British (English) and French.
    They may be friends/friendly now, but they've had a very long past of rivalry that is not easily forgotten.

    Personally what I thought was funny is that the British embassy in Paris apparently has a huge portret of the Duke of Wellington in the arrival hall :p

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    Default Re: French-English Rivalry?

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔Oggie♔ View Post
    Might I suggest the book "1000 years of annoying the French" by Stephen Clarke.
    Of course it is not meant to be serious (at least I did not took it seriously) but at least it's quite fun to read.
    The book is a fine example of the still existing rivalries between the British (English) and French.
    They may be friends/friendly now, but they've had a very long past of rivalry that is not easily forgotten.

    Personally what I thought was funny is that the British embassy in Paris apparently has a huge portret of the Duke of Wellington in the arrival hall :p
    LOL. I'm surprised that you don't realise that I do have the book. All my facts quoted in this thread are in fact from that lovely piece of work. It's like an adult-version of the kids' series Horrible Histories (though that series is still readable for adults). I was inspired by that book to start this thread as I wanted to find out first-hand whether what he says about how the English and the French view each other today is true or not.
    “No human race is superior; no religious faith is inferior. All collective judgments are wrong. Only racists make them” ― Elie Wiesel
    "No nationality or race is preferred over another in any way in the Eyes of the Almighty" - Mufti Ismail Menk
    “What's unnatural is homophobia. Homo sapiens is the only species in all of nature that responds with hate to homosexuality.” ― Alex Sanchez
    “Remember, remember always, that all of us, and you and I especially, are descended from immigrants and revolutionists.” ― Franklin D. Roosevelt
    “Nationalism is an infantile thing. It is the measles of mankind.” ― Albert Einstein

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