Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

  1. #1
    Meelis13's Avatar You fight like a cow!
    Content Staff

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    1,310
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    USSR collapsed, North Korea and Cuba are poor. China is de facto capitalist country with socialist ideology. i guess that pretty much sums it up, wich economy type is superior

    Link to the debate.
    Last edited by Darth Red; February 14, 2013 at 09:42 AM.
    Heidinn veor- dark age mod for M2TW now recruiting scripter/coder


  2. #2
    Darth Red's Avatar It's treason, then.
    Moderation Overseer Civitate

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    The Death Star
    Posts
    7,069
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    Commentary thread opened.
    Officially Bottled Awesome™ by Justinian


  3. #3
    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    8,316
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    Ok, but how are we defining socialism and capitalism in here? The "socialism" addressed seems to be a synonym of "State Planned Economy and State Owned Factors of Production", something that time and again has proved to be quite economically inefficient.

    On the other hand there are characteristics in many Productive Systems that can be branded Capitalist(there's private property and monetary systems, 2 basic indicators of a Capitalist System) where the same problems of a planned economy might arise: Oligopolies, Regional or National Monopolies and Cartels have been proved to be economically contrary for the adequate development of innovative practices, social equality and competitive markets... factors that have time and again been directly associated to a society's order, the communities welfare and companies efficiency.
    "...to promote the general welfare and ensure the benefits of liberty for us, for our posterity and for every man in the world who wishes to inhabit Argentine soil."



    Under the Patronage of Maximinus Thrax

  4. #4
    Equites Cohortales
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,781
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    Socialism as I defined it was a synonym for a mixed market economy. Capitalism as legio defined it was also a mixed market economy, thus our debate was one of judging which policies were inherently better within the mixed market economy, at least that was the attempt. Unfortunately the debate fizzled out. The debate kept being hijacked back towards the definition ideologies of both words which neither party was using in a pure sense confusing things further.

    My goal was to establish a balance between social and economic policies being the ideal rather than biasing society towards socialist or capitalist ideologies a natural middle line was the ideal. Legio seemed to agree with this.

    My next goal was to establish that many policies that we had discussed were actually given proper consideration. Legio seemed to offhandedly reject many policies as dead ends or not worthwhile. I was never really able to establish why to debate those factors except in the vagueist of senses.

    Case in point because after tarp there were fewer small businesses Legio has claimed that the federal reserve is [insert something negative] but I'm not sure what he's getting at. Tarp was a bailout program initiated by congress in response to the federal reserves suggestion. It's stated goal was to prevent a collapse of the economy into a depression which it succeeded in doing. If the banks had been allowed to collapse their holdings total trillions of dollars which means that the economy would take eons to recover, not simply years. This is where the debate ended.
    Last edited by elfdude; February 15, 2013 at 03:29 PM.
    The greatest threat to Science is the illusion of knowledge.
    Political Profile | Justice on TWCenter | Elfdude's Guide to Evolution

  5. #5
    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    8,316
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    Regarding de whole "The Federal Reserve and Central Banks are harmful to the optimal exchange of goods and the setting of their prices in the Market" argument we can conclude it's reckless, not to say stupid, to hold it without having properly understood a grasp of the Currency Market, or Gresham's Law or at least Jean Bodin's writings lol.
    "...to promote the general welfare and ensure the benefits of liberty for us, for our posterity and for every man in the world who wishes to inhabit Argentine soil."



    Under the Patronage of Maximinus Thrax

  6. #6
    Dr Zoidberg's Avatar A Medical Corporation
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,864
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    Two things: 1) Read debate thread- head now hurts. 2) elf dude, I'm pretty sure this commentary threads for eveyrone else to you know, comment on your debate.
    Young lady, I am an expert on humans. Now pick a mouth, open it and say "brglgrglgrrr"!

  7. #7
    Aanker's Avatar Concordant
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    6,361
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    Ideological discussion is mostly uninteresting anyway. It should come down to policies that directly increase the wealth of a nation... We can decide what moral points to spend or not spend our money on afterwards. I think you would have been better off focusing the discussion on one policy, like healthcare or education, instead of approaching it so broadly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Persecution of minorities is just what happens to minorities. That's just how human society works.








    UNDER THE PROUD PATRONAGE OF ABBEWS
    According to this poll, 80%* of TGW fans agree that "The mod team is devilishly handsome" *as of 12/10

  8. #8
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Denny Crane!
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    23,584
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    Seems very much like you want to have your cake and eat it with your definitions Elfdude.

  9. #9
    Ludicus's Avatar Citizen
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,486
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    "Which is the better economy": what really matters is the average subjective well-being of the citizens.
    The time is ripe for our measurement system to shift emphasis from measuring economic production to measure people´s well being.(Stiglitz, 2009)
    Last edited by Ludicus; February 16, 2013 at 04:40 PM.
    I can imagine no more comfortable frame of mind for the conduct of life than a humorous resignation.
    Somerset Maugham

  10. #10
    Equites Cohortales
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    4,781
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Zoidberg View Post
    Two things: 1) Read debate thread- head now hurts. 2) elf dude, I'm pretty sure this commentary threads for eveyrone else to you know, comment on your debate.
    I know it's a commentary thread, I can make my own comments right? Anyways the vast majority of definitional debate really is trivial the few things we touch that can actually be debated are far more interesting imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Seems very much like you want to have your cake and eat it with your definitions Elfdude.
    I'm not sure what you mean entirely, although it might be key to point out my definitions aren't correct and I've admitted as such, hence my attempt to reframe the debate (which mostly failed). I don't accept the idea that anything with a market component is capitalism as proper, the way I was taught was anything with a social component is socialism. But I think now both definitions are simplifications which are utterly impossible in their purist form.
    The greatest threat to Science is the illusion of knowledge.
    Political Profile | Justice on TWCenter | Elfdude's Guide to Evolution

  11. #11
    ShockBlast's Avatar Equites
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    European Union , Romania , Constanta
    Posts
    3,936
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    ARrrgh ... for the love of God (and I`m an atheist) please don`t mix political doctrines (like Socialism) with economical systems (capitalism).Why didn`t you point this out Danny ? :hmm:

    Mixed market economy isn`t some kinky description it`s one of the 3 economical systems known to mankind along side planned economy and free market (capitalism).

    I`m glad to see TWC hearing about something as old new as mixed market economy.In a few years it might be considered an actual economical system.

    Capitalism is capitalism and mixed market is mixed market.

    And Socialism like the political doctrine that is can make use of planned market or mixed market economy.
    Capitalism wouldn`t go well with Socialism since it`s a doctrine that emphasizes equality so the donations it would receive are way too low.
    Last edited by ShockBlast; February 22, 2013 at 08:38 AM.



  12. #12
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Denny Crane!
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    23,584
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post
    I know it's a commentary thread, I can make my own comments right? Anyways the vast majority of definitional debate really is trivial the few things we touch that can actually be debated are far more interesting imo.



    I'm not sure what you mean entirely, although it might be key to point out my definitions aren't correct and I've admitted as such, hence my attempt to reframe the debate (which mostly failed). I don't accept the idea that anything with a market component is capitalism as proper, the way I was taught was anything with a social component is socialism. But I think now both definitions are simplifications which are utterly impossible in their purist form.
    Well yes that was rather my point. If you'd already gone so far as to point that last sentence out then my comment was redundant.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast View Post
    ARrrgh ... for the love of God (and I`m an atheist) please don`t mix political doctrines (like Socialism) with economical systems (capitalism).Why didn`t you point this out Danny ?

    Mixed market economy isn`t some kinky description it`s one of the 3 economical systems known to mankind along side planned economy and free market (capitalism).

    I`m glad to see TWC hearing about something as old new as mixed market economy.In a few years it might be considered an actual economical system.

    Capitalism is capitalism and mixed market is mixed market.

    And Socialism like the political doctrine that is can make use of planned market or mixed market economy.
    Capitalism wouldn`t go well with Socialism since it`s a doctrine that emphasizes equality so the donations it would receive are way too low.
    Seems like you want to make my comment mean a lot more than it did. Don't do that.

  13. #13
    ShockBlast's Avatar Equites
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    European Union , Romania , Constanta
    Posts
    3,936
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Seems like you want to make my comment mean a lot more than it did. Don't do that.
    Neah, I know for a fact that you know the difference between the two of them.

    It`s like having two guys arguing what sex is better vaginal or handjob.



  14. #14
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Denny Crane!
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    23,584
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    I feel liker there is a third way

  15. #15
    junaidi83's Avatar Centurio
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Indonesia
    Posts
    455
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica]

    i put my money on capitalism, it already prove by history. Socialism is good for control people but realy bad to control economy.
    Modding is like accursed wine, you try a sip and you ended empty the whole glass

  16. #16
    Hastatas Posterior
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Germany, Baden
    Posts
    797
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    Capitalism vs planned economy is stereotyped thinking. Both systems are limited, far from perfect and they have failed. The Hegelian dialectic suggest the following:

    Thesis: Capitalism (the winner gets everything and the rest shall suffer and die)
    Antithesis: Socialism (everyone the same regardless of talent/merit)
    -> Synthesis: Social Capitalism
    - Minimum and maximum wage (some suggest 1:12 or 1:20) to stop limitless greed while acknowledging that hard work deserves more money.
    - No stock exchanges. Our daily bread is not a gambling toy for the rich. If companies need money, they should go to a bank.
    - Nationalization of banks/electricity/water. These companies belong into the hand of the people.
    - More smaller companies run by their proprietors instead of international monsters that are only good at tax evasion.
    - 100% inheritance tax. Your merits should take you to the top and not your parent's money.

  17. #17
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Denny Crane!
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    23,584
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    I love the phrase "nationalise" and "hands of the people" in the same sentence. Much like "power to the people" is call for a revolutionto put one single man in power and get a bunch of people shot.

  18. #18
    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    8,316
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Capitalism vs. Socialism: Which is the better economy? [elfdude vs. Legio Italica] commentary thread

    Planned economies only worked somewhat consistently during the times of Ancient Egypt and, to a lesser extent, in Mesopotamia cultures. Roman, Medieval and eventually Soviet intents to suppress individually directed capital flows or intense planning of most productive areas eventually failed; technological progress and social rationalization is too much for a single political entity to handle without incurring in major cracks.

    Central planning works better when there's or there has to be a natural monopoly (transportation services or political monopoly on force) or private entities won't invest in a certain service due to lack of potential profits (certain educational areas, public health or social security); but social ownership of the means of production as in "central planning by a specialized bureaucracy of every aspect of production" is doomed to create several problems: administrative tasks out-growing productive ones, lack of collective organizational stimulus, sluggish innovation processes and departmentalized struggle between different areas of the same productive units. All of these problems plague large corporations as well but competition with smaller or larger entities forces them to try to correct them faster.
    Last edited by Claudius Gothicus; August 13, 2014 at 03:33 PM.
    "...to promote the general welfare and ensure the benefits of liberty for us, for our posterity and for every man in the world who wishes to inhabit Argentine soil."



    Under the Patronage of Maximinus Thrax

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •