Seleucia Army reforms

[paulus]

There was no such thing in the Seleucid Empire as machairophoroi epilektoi as far as we know. The word "Machairophoroi" was variously used in several kingdoms (although best attested in Egypt thanks in large part to the papyri), generally in reference to either police, paramilitary, or militia-type units who were probably armed with a thureos or pelte if/when they carried a shield at all. EB2 includes machairophoroi as a unit suited mainly for garrison or irregular duty; after the unit was designed, a member who was also with RS2 ported the concept there and expanded on it. Machairophoroi Epilektoi is a reconstructed name, and not a bad one, but it is reconstructed, and I would guess, based on Hellenistic military nomenclature, that the Seleucids probably would not have selected a name like machairophoroi for an elite, front-line unit.

On the subject of the machaira itself, 2nd century evidence indicates that the "machaira" wielded by these and other units may have been a different style of weapon, influenced by Galatian contact, a double-bladed weapon with a stabbing point. While it would have been more effective than a traditional machaira in thureomachy, it probably would not have performed very well against Roman gladii, particularly the longer, stronger, and broader hispaniensis of the second century. Note, for example, that RS2 has that detail correct: the machaira wielded by the machairophoroi epilektoi are these second century types, not the classical machaira. I just think thorakitai epilektoi would be, historically, a sounder name. But I'm not very familiar with their roster, perhaps they have both and needed another name for the sword-armed unit.

[Evalation]

@Evalation, looks great. Were the legionaries flanked while being held by the machairoforoi? It's interesting that there seem to be some rolling hills and mountains in the battlefield, I wonder if the appearance of troops that were behind a hill has a psychological impact on enemies in the same manner that the appearance of hidden troops does.

1.Yes I held the Romans in place by putting my Seleucid Legionaires on guard mode, and they held the ground beautifully, and I sent my cavalry around the flanks and used the hammer/anvil tactic and eventually made the Romans do a mass route.

2.yea the terrain in the RS2.5 mod are amazing, there are tons of places to hide troops, like peltasts and things like that, to harras the enemy before your main lines engage.

3.Yes bringing troops out of hiding, wether it be behind a hill or in the trees, will damage the moral of the enemy troops instantly taking it to eager to shaken, and a little descr will pop up saying "Startled by emerging enemy".

[ioannis76]

@Paulus.
Thanks, I was not aware of the point that the machaira was something different than what it was in the traditional sense.
The word "μαχαίρι" today is a generic word for "knife", but by the term machaira (μάχαιρα) I had in mind a weapon fashioned like a handsaw, curved, with the sharp part being the internal part of the blade, and a hand grip that anatomically fits the hand, thus the speculation about its best use in hand to hand combat against the Romans.

@Evalation

1.Yes I held the Romans in place by putting my Seleucid Legionaires on guard mode, and they held the ground beautifully, and I sent my cavalry around the flanks and used the hammer/anvil tactic and eventually made the Romans do a mass route.

2.yea the terrain in the RS2.5 mod are amazing, there are tons of places to hide troops, like peltasts and things like that, to harras the enemy before your main lines engage.

3.Yes bringing troops out of hiding, wether it be behind a hill or in the trees, will damage the moral of the enemy troops instantly taking it to eager to shaken, and a little descr will pop up saying "Startled by emerging enemy".

Heavy cavalry charging the rear/flanks of infantry. That must have sent many legionaries flying, right before the rout.
Can't wait to see all that in the MTW2 engine.

[yuezhi]

i figured machairophoroi sounds rather generic, much like the CA treatment for ancient unit names.

[ioannis76]

Well, it literally means "machaira bearers" which does have some similarity with shield bearers...
But it was not uncommon to be named thus, I think. For example, scythe chariots were named "δρεπανηφόρα άρματα" ie scythe bearing chariots. And also, another name for the immortals was "μηλοφόροι" ie "apple bearers", because of the apple like ball rear part of their spears (unlike the Greek dori which had a saurotiras, that is, another sharp point which they drove on the ground when they stopped, and they even used for combat, if the front part of the spear broke.
The bottom like is, the suffix "φέρω" (bear (the verb, not the furry animal) did occur.

[yuezhi]

This is a screen from a battle I had a few mins ao agianst a Roman named/numbered legion. My Seleucid legionaires held the line and eventually allowed my cataphracts to finish off the puny Romans.

Something's bothering me about this. do these "imitations" throw javelins?

[Evalation]

Something's bothering me about this. do these "imitations" throw javelins?

Yes.

[yuezhi]

then surely those swords on their belts are for show. unless RS2 somehow upped the hardcode cap on weapons.

[ioannis76]

then surely those swords on their belts are for show. unless RS2 somehow upped the hardcode cap on weapons.

I was under the impression that the Romans are the guys on the left. In fact, your comment made me notice that the guys on the right have empty scabbards. Does this mean that they actually drew their swords?

[yuezhi]

oh wait i didn't connect the troops with those banners until now

[Evalation]

The guys on the Right are Seleucid legionaires(Machairaphoroi Eplekitoi) the ones on the right are Roman Imperial auxilias that aided the legion. The Roman Ai is good about recruiting well balanced Legions similar to the set up an actual Roman legion might hae looked like.

Ive never seem them draw their swords, but I usually fight from a birds eye veiw. But seleucid legionaires enter the battlefield with their swords already drawn.

[asmodeus585]

1.Yes I held the Romans in place by putting my Seleucid Legionaires on guard mode, and they held the ground beautifully, and I sent my cavalry around the flanks and used the hammer/anvil tactic and eventually made the Romans do a mass route.

Evalation, were your μαχαιροφοροι (machairophoroi) somewhat upgraded?

'Cause in my campaign even early Roman units such as Polybian Cohorts have better stats than my elite επιλεκτοι (epilektoi) and that makes me a bit worried. Once their better cohorts and legionaries become available to them, I'm afraid I won't be able to overcome Romans in battle unless through sheer number superiority...

Fortunately now, after conquering Ptolemaics, I'm crashing Pergamon in Asia Minor and trying to make Parthia (so far unsuccessfully ) my protectorate in the east. Meanwhile, Romans are kept busy by Macedon and Carthage and they all seem to be at a stalemate, so I didn't have to face the Italian scum yet.

Nonetheless, just in a decade or two it may get to the point when my spies would cry: "Scipio Asiaticus ante portas" or maybe rather "Σκιπίων ο Ασιατικος προ των πυλών".

[Evalation]

Yea my troops are all upgraded with silver upgrades on everything through the capital city of Antiochia. I have the best barracks/armourer you can get there. With the upgrades my Seleucid troops can hold their on fairly well agianst Roman named/numbered legions. But if they dont have some supporting troops like cavalry its a nailbiter on wether youll win or not.

[aqd]

They already have them: they're called thorakitai

Essentially infantry in chainmail besides westerners like celts, germans, and carthaginians will be called imitations by Romans after all they will claim invention of everything.

No not really. The thorakitai are only similarly equipped. They're still skirmishers or garrison units. Seleucid never adopted the rigid formation for their new soldiers, unlike the Ptolemaics who employed Roman trainers to completely remodel its army.


The very late Seleucid kingdom - when their territory covered nothing but Lebanon (or syria?) - had native horse archers / heavily armoured cavalry with bows. Perhaps they had some other significant changes as well.

[ioannis76]

Yea my troops are all upgraded with silver upgrades on everything through the capital city of Antiochia. I have the best barracks/armourer you can get there. With the upgrades my Seleucid troops can hold their on fairly well agianst Roman named/numbered legions. But if they dont have some supporting troops like cavalry its a nailbiter on wether youll win or not.

Sounds like my kind of battle.

[yuezhi]

No not really. The thorakitai are only similarly equipped. They're still skirmishers or garrison units. Seleucid never adopted the rigid formation for their new soldiers, unlike the Ptolemaics who employed Roman trainers to completely remodel its army.

wat? you can't skirmish with thorakitai the same reason you don't with roman legions. they're too goddamn heavy!

The Thorakitai represent the second evolution of the concept of the Thureophoroi, and show definite influence by the Romaioi in their implementation. They are armored in mail and carry heavy javelins instead of the lighter javelins carried by the Thureophoroi. They are more expensive and less mobile than their more lightly armored companions, but make excellent shock troops for any Hellenic army. They are best utilized on the flanks of the phalanx to either flank the enemy while the phalanx pins them, or prevent enemy flankers from attacking the phalanx’s vulnerable flanks. They are best used in combination with the lighter Thureophoroi, who can support them with extra javelins and more importantly, speed, to make sure they are not surrounded.

Historically, the Thorakitai were used much like the Thureophoroi, but more rarely and later on. They were expensive soldiers, and one had to be fairly wealthy to equip one’s self as a Thorakites. They were only used in any real numbers by the Seleukeis and the city-states of Hellas. They were never used to their full potential until the Romaioi raised legions in Hellas, and the type of fighting practiced by the Romaioi Legions and Thorakitai became the norm rather than the exception.