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Thread: Egyptian and Greek literature comparisons

  1. #1
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Egyptian and Greek literature comparisons

    In another thread, Ferrets mentioned in passing the Near Eastern influence on ancient Greek literature, such as the Epic of Gilgamesh. But what of ancient Egyptian literature and its impact on later Greek literature?I can think of one prominent example. The Taking of Joppa, found on Papyrus Harris 500 (written during the 19th or 20th dynasty of the New Kingdom period), which contains a scene of Egyptian soldiers sneaking into the enemy city of Jaffa (part of modern Tel Aviv). It may have influenced the idea of the Trojan Horse in Homer's epic poem The Iliad. Here's a short excerpt from Simpson (1972) p. 81 describing the text:
    The great pharaoh Menkheperre Thutmose III of Dynasty 18 had probably secured the vassalage of the Prince of Joppa during his initial campaign into Syro-Palestine. Subsequently Joppa, modern Jaffa, on the coast of southern Palestine, rebelled against Egyptian domination. The story The Capture of Joppa concerns the subjugation of the rebellious town by Djehuty, a prominent general and garrison commander under Thutmose III. Although the beginning of his fantastic story is lost, it can be surmised that the two contenders had met outside the town unarmed to discuss the situation. With the soldiers reduced to drunkenness, Djehuty offers to deliver himself and his family to the Prince of Joppa as part of his strategem for recapturing Joppa. The introduction of baskets concealing soldiers into the town is reminiscent of the story of the Trojan horse and the tale of Ali Baba and his forty thieves. There is another fragmentary Ramesside story about Thutmose III's military activity published by Giuseppe Botti, 'A Fragment of the Story of a Military Expedition of Thutmose III to Syrua,' JEA 41 (1955): 64-71.
    Source: Simpson, William Kelly. (1972). The Literature of Ancient Egypt: An Anthology of Stories, Instructions, and Poetry. Edited by William Kelly Simpson. Translations by R.O. Faulkner, Edward F. Wente, Jr., and William Kelly Simpson. New Haven and London: Yale University Press. ISBN 0300014821.So what do you people think? This discussion could very well include ancient Egyptian literature's influence on later Arabic literature as well.

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    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
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    Default Re: Egyptian and Greek literature comparisons

    Defining the amount or the extend of Egyptian influence on Greek literature is ,i am afraid, pure speculation.
    Certainly there was a significant cultural contact through the ages and literature may have been one of the elements but how can we know for sure when the Egyptian sources are so scarce and the Greek ones apart from the myth of Danaaos or Aegisthos do not mention Egypt much.
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Egyptian and Greek literature comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    Defining the amount or the extend of Egyptian influence on Greek literature is ,i am afraid, pure speculation.Certainly there was a significant cultural contact through the ages and literature may have been one of the elements but how can we know for sure when the Egyptian sources are so scarce and the Greek ones apart from the myth of Danaaos or Aegisthos do not mention Egypt much.
    I more or less had that impression already, but was wondering if others had strong examples like the one I shared above. The Greeks and their civilization really come to prominence from the 5th century BC onwards and with their newfound political power comes an explosion of literature in all varieties. Yet during the latter half of the 1st millennium BC there wasn't much production of native Egyptian literature, at least not the amount of classics churned out during the Middle and New Kingdoms. The Ramesside period of the 19th and 20th dynasties saw perhaps the greatest widespread copying effort of Egyptian classical texts, but Egypt's overall decline brought with it a decline in the old scribal profession as well. It was always the Egyptian scribes who maintained and produced new classical literature for their own pedagogical purposes, properly training new scribes by instilling a set of ethics found buried in the fictional stories of their texts. During the Ptolemaic period and Roman period we see Greco-Roman influence in everything except perhaps the short story cycles that had their origins in the greater narratives written during the Middle and New Kingdoms of Egypt. One could say native ancient Egyptian literature ends with the replacement in both language and script of Demotic with Coptic, which was based on the Greek alphabet and deemed more suitable for copying the Bible than those heathen hieroglyphic characters and cursive hieratic their pagan ancestors had used. And as long as we're making comparisons, this was no one-way street either. For example, the native Egyptian historian Manetho (fl. 3rd century BC) may have used the old kings lists and chronicles of Egypt's past for his sources, but he used the Greek Herodotus and his Histories as the ultimate model for his work.

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    Default Re: Egyptian and Greek literature comparisons

    Atlantis.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Egyptian and Greek literature comparisons

    Hah! Utter nonsense. Atlantis is the sole creation of the fanciful imagination of Plato. He did not refer to any legitimately known Egyptian works as his inspiration for the tale.And the assertions made in the commentary on his Timaeus by Crantor (preserved by Proclus in the 5th century) is simply laughable. The Egyptians never recorded tales as such with hieroglyphics on the columns of temples. That's rubbish and only shows how much the Greeks of Crantor's time misunderstood the ancient Egyptians who came before them. Carving hieroglyphs into stone had to be done by elite scribal specialists and was reserved only for monumental occasion. Some silly tale like Atlantis would not have fit the bill. Egyptian hieroglyphs carved into stone columns were used mostly for religious ritual, ensuring a permanently animate afterlife for the deceased. They were also made to glorify the deeds of living or recently deceased pharaohs, such as winning battles or erecting new monuments. A tale like that of Atlantis would have been written by reed pen on simple ostraca or papyrus with cursive hieratic like all other narrative tales written in ancient Egypt. Crantor's account thus smacks of very smelly BS if you ask me.

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    Default Re: Egyptian and Greek literature comparisons

    Frankenstein.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Egyptian and Greek literature comparisons

    Ok. Now you're just ****ing with me.

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