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Thread: The Origins of Greek Philosophy

  1. #1

    Default The Origins of Greek Philosophy

    The Origins of Greek Philosophy

    The break with the divine kingship system of the Mycenaean period allowed the Greeks to assert a cultural distinction, a unique identity separate from other, competing groups like the Syrians, Lydians, Persians, Egyptians, and Phoenicians (collectively referred to here as "Asians"), and also in effect with their own forgotten past. And this striving to mark themselves as different, aided by several other factors described above, led several contrasts to be emphasized. Though these features all had their own separate causes, the Greek search for a cultural identity resulted in these features being emphasized, celebrated, and strengthened.

    The Greeks saw these distinctions in a particular way: Asians were supposed to have divine kings and be slaves, but Greeks were supposed to be free and equal; Asian politics centered on the unquestionable commands of the king, but Greek politics centered on public debate in the marketplace; Asian worldviews tended to justify the king's divine right to rule and were enforced from above, ending and suppressing all argument, but Greek worldviews tended to justify equality, individuality and the idea of the commonwealth, and they were not enforced by any authority but the people, who were largely free to vary and differ, producing open argument; Asian worldviews tended toward hierarchy (even the Greek pantheon, older than the new Greek cultural phenomena, retained echoes of this), but Greek worldviews tended toward notions of a division of powers, and thus equilibrium, symmetry, equality of elements.

    The effect of this on intellectual culture is easy enough to see. If Asian beliefs appealed to the gods through the king, Greek beliefs had to appeal to the natural order through individual observation, and if Asian beliefs appealed to tradition, Greek beliefs had to appeal to justification from evidence and from principles of reason, for there was no longer any centralized authority among the Greeks, who were awash in many competing claims. These distinctions, of course, are merely idealizations. The truth often drifted away from these ideals in practice, but they were real enough to send Greek culture on a peculiar path.
    Pretty fascinating stuff, especially for a (ancient) Hellenephile like me.

  2. #2
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
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    Default Re: The Origins of Greek Philosophy

    Interesting read
    Also check this
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: The Origins of Greek Philosophy

    The article makes a lot of generalizations that apply to ancient Greece at different times, since some of these generalizations only apply to Greece after the Classical Age was ushered in, not during the previous Archaic Period. The article also ends without leaving me satisfied! It goes through all these societal factors that provided a nice breeding ground for ancient Greek philosophers, but in the very last sentence we finally come to the first mention of philosophers prior to Socrates! I want more, damn it!

  4. #4
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
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    Default Re: The Origins of Greek Philosophy

    Read the article in my link RV
    It is about Presocratics
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Origins of Greek Philosophy

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    Interesting read
    Also check this
    Very interesting, thank you.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Origins of Greek Philosophy

    Typical Anicent Greek propaganda. Not all Greek Cities States were Pericles's Athens. And not all "Asians" were king/god worshiping idiots. Stupid Hegel /Montesquieu eurocentrisam.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Origins of Greek Philosophy

    I am left equally unimpressed. Philosophy, and religion for that matter, stem from age old questions about the meaning of our existence. The development of such thoughts are clearly influence by the experiences and the environment. However, they were those that argue against the conventional norm. I agree with a previous comment that not all of Greece was the idealized Athens.

    It reads like a teaser- there should be more?

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Origins of Greek Philosophy

    You do realize that Plato-Socratic philosophy disdained democracy and advocated rule by a philosopher-king (a wise king). They believe that every person has their own place in society and shouldn't try to stir up the pot. Merchants should be merchants, Soldiers should be soldiers, and the wise should become rules. I mean, Socrates was killed because of democracy; so no, Greek philosophy does not equal democracy and Asian society does not equal tyranny. In fact, democracy might as well have been invented in Asia, but monarchy was more prevalent because it was more effective.
    Last edited by Shams al-Ma'rifa; March 06, 2013 at 06:43 PM.


  9. #9
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
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    Default Re: The Origins of Greek Philosophy

    Really did the posters of this thread actually read any work of the Greek philosophers?
    I really doubt
    Anyway concerning Plato's republic and his criticising democracy :
    In mapping out the constitution for his utopian society or state, Plato starts out with a schematic description of the human soul. Every soul, according to him, is composed of three parts: bodily desires and appetites, “spirited emotions” like ambition and courage, and finally the faculty of knowledge and reason. In a healthy individual all three parts fulfill their proper function. Bodily desires and appetites secure the physical survival of a person, the spirited emotions inspire his more far-reaching plans and projects, and the intellectual faculties make sure that all enterprises remain reasonable and under rational control. Plato lays great stress on the disciplining function of reason. Without the self-discipline imposed by reason a person may easily turn into something like a self-destructive glutton, or into a person carried away by foolish emotions and thoughtless ambitions. Informed reason, according to Plato, is the faculty best suited to make all the right and necessary decisions in a person’s life.

    The utopian society described in the Republic has a similar tripartite structure as the human soul. Corresponding to the bodily desires and appetites of the soul is the class of people who are involved in the economy of a state. This class constitutes the vast majority of the people, and it comprises such diverse groups as craftsmen, farmers, merchants, manufacturers, and money changers or bankers. Plato classifies all of them as “lovers of money.”

    Corresponding to the spirited emotions in the soul is the much smaller class of the armed forces, the class of professional warriors that is responsible for the safety of the community. Plato calls them “lovers of honor.” Their main desire is to gain fame and admiration by serving their fellow citizens—for whom, in extreme situations, they are willing to sacrifice their lives as well as their material possessions.

    Corresponding to the faculty of reason is the smallest class of people—scientists, scholars, high-level experts, and similar sophisticates. Plato calls them “lovers of wisdom,” i. e., “philosophers.” Their most passionate interests are understanding and knowledge, and their greatest pleasure a lively life of the mind.

    As a just and healthy person is governed by knowledge and reason, a just society must be under the control of society’s most cultivated and best informed minds, its “lovers of wisdom.” Just societies cannot be run by big money or armed forces with their too narrow agendas. Limitless desire for wealth and blind ambition must be watched and contained as potential public dangers. The most informed minds must determine objectively, with due consideration of all points of view, what the most healthy and practical goals for the commonwealth are.

    This rule by society’s best minds is the core concept of Plato’s so-called “philosopher kings.” Until now crucial decisions concerning war, peace, and the welfare of society had always been left to corrupt or incompetent politicians, ignorant voters, over-ambitious generals, and other people unsuited to run a state. Bloodshed, hatred, waste of resources, and deplorable conditions had usually been the result. There is no chance for things to become better unless knowledge and reason are put in command—the best knowledge and the most competent reason that society can muster. Lovers of wisdom may not be eager to govern, as their main passions are more intellectual pursuits. But since they are the best trained and best informed minds, they must be obligated by law to run the state—as a sort of committee of technocrats. "Until philosophers are kings, or the kings and princes of this world have the spirit and power of philosophy, … cities will never have rest from their evils,” as Plato suggests in the Republic. (3)

    Plato was fully aware of how outlandish such an idea must have sounded in the ears of most of his contemporaries, an idea that was rendered even more fantastic by his contention that women are as capable of being philosophers and governors as men, and that no member of the government should be allowed to own or accumulate property while in office. Plato himself poked subtle fun at the strangeness of what he was proposing, and some scholars are not sure just how seriously Plato took the proposals of the Republic himself. Still, the book’




    2.1.2 Instrumental Arguments against Democracy

    Not all instrumental arguments favor democracy. Plato (Republic, Book VI) argues that democracy is inferior to various forms of monarchy, aristocracy and even oligarchy on the grounds that democracy tends to undermine the expertise necessary to properly governed societies. In a democracy, he argues, those who are expert at winning elections and nothing else will eventually dominate democratic politics. Democracy tends to emphasize this expertise at the expense of the expertise that is necessary to properly governed societies. The reason for this is that most people do not have the kinds of talents that enable them to think well about the difficult issues that politics involves. But in order to win office or get a piece of legislation passed, politicians must appeal to these people's sense of what is right or not right. Hence, the state will be guided by very poorly worked out ideas that experts in manipulation and mass appeal use to help themselves win office.
    Hobbes (1651, chap. XIX) argues that democracy is inferior to monarchy because democracy fosters destabilizing dissension among subjects. But his skepticism is not based in a conception that most people are not intellectually fit for politics. On his view, individual citizens and even politicians are apt not to have a sense of responsibility for the quality of legislation because no one makes a significant difference to the outcomes of decision making. As a consequence, citizens’ concerns are not focused on politics and politicians succeed only by making loud and manipulative appeals to citizens in order to gain more power, but all lack incentives to consider views that are genuinely for the common good. Hence the sense of lack of responsibility for outcomes undermines politicians’ concern for the common good and inclines them to make sectarian and divisive appeals to citizens. For Hobbes, then, democracy has deleterious effects on subjects and politicians and consequently on the quality of the outcomes of collective decision making.
    Many public choice theorists in contemporary economic thought expand on these Hobbesian criticisms. They argue that citizens are not informed about politics and that they are often apathetic, which makes room for special interests to control the behavior of politicians and use the state for their own limited purposes all the while spreading the costs to everyone else. Some of them argue for giving over near complete control over society to the market, on the grounds that more extensive democracy tends to produce serious economic inefficiencies. More modest versions of these arguments have been used to justify modification of democratic institutions.
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/democracy/
    Let us see first how Socrates classifies one skilled in the art of rhetoric, particularly with regards to one who is not learned in a particular subject outside of rhetoric. Using Socrates’ own analogy, it is suggested that a rhetorician would be more capable of persuading a crowd of ignorant people on the subject of health than even a doctor. Although this seems foolish on the surface, a further examination would reveal the chilling truth behind these words; throughout the history of the world, a great multitude of people have been deceived and beguiled by skilled speakers, masters of rhetoric. This was something that Friedrich Nietzsche noted: “Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” Even today, we hear the words of those who proclaim they have wisdom in areas they have no expertise in. Though this may seem contradictory by default, it pays to not underestimate the ignorance of the populace at large, particularly when normally skeptical and rational individuals are swayed into thinking along with the group.
    However, let us refocus the argument on Socrates and his words concerning the evil-doing tyrant in passages 470-480 (Helmbold 32-48). Polus – a teacher of rhetoric – contends that an unjust man (in this case, Archelaus, a king of Macedon), despite the crimes he has committed, is happy. Despite his unjust actions, he managed to become a person of power; he is the happier man, considering he has not met any punishment. Socrates does not agree with this notion; he contends that, among all wretched men, it is the unpunished that are truly unhappy. Recall, if you will, the beliefs of Socrates in terms of the soul.
    He emphasized throughout his life that men should be concerned about the welfare of their soul. It is not at all unlike Socrates to suggest that a criminal who receives punishment for his wrongdoing – in other words, correction of their evils – will, in the end, be far happier than he who does not receive any punishment at all.
    Let us carry this line of thought back to the issue of democracy. As Socrates suggested in Plato’s Gorgias, the criminal who does wrongdoing without receiving any punishment is the most wretched person of all. What then, of a democracy, where the majority of people determines actions and policies?
    What if, as a majority, the people decided to commit a heinous act, such as an unjustified military action against another nation for the sake of resources, no matter the cost in human lives? Such an action would lead to death and suffering for a great many people. Also, consider that the majority would not judge or correct themselves, for they were the ones who agreed to partake in that course of action. As such, they inflict evil upon many more people than an individual could ever hope to; after all, as a democracy, the majority’s actions affect the entirety of the state and its citizens.
    Even if the aforementioned individual were actually a tyrant, the evil he inflicts would only pollute his own soul; a democracy that commits wrongdoing pollutes the souls of everyone who partakes in the political process. Recall in the Apology that Socrates was tried and sentenced to death by the men of Athens. Recall that their minds were swayed against Socrates by rhetoricians; from the time they were mere babes, the men of the jury were of the opinion that Socrates had committed things that were, in fact, falsities (Apology 17a-19e). A wise and noble philosopher was put to death by people who had been persuaded wrongfully by skilled rhetoricians (once again reminding us that there was no love lost between Plato and those who were considered masters of persuasion), and as such they committed an unjust act that, in the end, negatively affected the welfare of the souls. After all, who would rejoice in putting an innocent man of wisdom to death? The answer: only those who are ignorant of the philosopher’s innocence, misled as they were by groupthink and ill-intentioned rhetoricians.
    So now we can see why Plato had some unflattering opinions of democracy; for a philosopher concerned with the welfare of the soul, the idea of so many people – people that, in large groups, can be swayed easily by rhetoricians – being capable of unwittingly corrupting the health of their own souls must be horrifying. This leads us to Plato’s idea of the “ideal” government. In the vast work that is The Republic, there is one passage in Book V that shows the ones whom Socrates thinks should be the rulers of a government:
    Unless the philosophers rule as kings or those now called kings and chiefs genuinely and adequately philosophize, and political power and philosophy coincide in the same place, while the many natures now making their way to either apart from the other are by necessity excluded, there is no rest from ills for the cities, my dear Glaucon, nor I think for human kind, nor will the regime we have now described in speech ever come forth from nature, insofar as possible, and see the light of the sun. (Republic 473d-e)
    A philosopher, to Plato and Socrates, is the ideal ruler of a state. The fact that such a government would be one where the people do not decide is irrelevant; as a philosopher concerned with the welfare of one’s soul, Plato wants what is best for the souls of the citizens. A king concerned with the pursuit of wisdom would undoubtedly be better than a lover of wealth, power, or status.
    In conclusion, it should be noted that, in modern times, a democracy is considered one of the more ideal forms of government, considering the value many people tend to place on individual liberty and the freedom to choose one’s own path in life. However, Plato’s criticisms should be kept in mind when determining the merit of a democratic government. Oh, would it not be great to have a democracy of philosophers, who would pursue truth and wisdom! Alas, we are only human, and susceptible to many evils and lies. The trick is to prevent such ignorant people from becoming the majority. At times, it seems nigh impossible to do so; curse our stupidity!
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1824376/posts

    And
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_five_regimes
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Origins of Greek Philosophy

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    Interesting read
    Also check this
    Good read, thanks.

    Spoiler for King of Persia
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