Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 107

Thread: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

  1. #61
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar Sixth Heaven Demon Lord
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Azuchi-jō Tenshu
    Posts
    11,475
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post

    I do not think war can ever be moral. We certainly do try to however. War, at best, is an amoral affair. Any morality we assign to it is done to rationalize the death and destruction it causes. Don't be fooled by the facade of a noble fight, it is all about power and wealth.

    The state would do anything to protect its own self- interest. It s a real coup is they convince you of their righteousness!

    ---
    Yes, EVERY SINGLE WAR.
    I agree.

  2. #62
    Diocle's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Genoa - Italy
    Posts
    7,927
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Wait a moment please, two exeples:

    American Civil War: Fighting against slavery it's morally right, it's also a duty for any man who likes be called man.

    WWII: Bombing, fighting, destroing the Nazi Geman Regime was not only a moral duty but also the only right thing to do to stop a mass genocide against Jews, homosexuals, Slavs, Gypsies, Christians, socialists and all the people of good will killed by the Nazis.

    The war is always the wrong way, in war there is always someone who is able to exploit advantages for his part, war is always a horror, but it's also a horror watching a band of criminals killing people and doing nothing to stop them.

  3. #63
    PikeStance's Avatar Imperial Splendour- PM
    Citizen Vault Staff

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Changchun, China
    Posts
    3,318
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Wait a moment please, two exeples:

    American Civil War: Fighting against slavery it's morally right, it's also a duty for any man who likes be called man.

    WWII: Bombing, fighting, destroing the Nazi Geman Regime was not only a moral duty but also the only right thing to do to stop a mass genocide against Jews, homosexuals, Slavs, Gypsies, Christians, socialists and all the people of good will killed by the Nazis.

    The war is always the wrong way, in war there is always someone who is able to exploit advantages for his part, war is always a horror, but it's also a horror watching a band of criminals killing people and doing nothing to stop them.
    The Am Civil War did not start off being about the freeing of the slaves; it was the result of the war.
    WWII: when attacked- you fight! I'm have serious reservations that if Germany had not invaded Poland, but executed 1000s of Jews and other minorities, other powers would had stepped in.

    ....




  4. #64
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Somewhere snowing... This damned holiday...
    Posts
    33,509
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    WWII: Bombing, fighting, destroing the Nazi Geman Regime was not only a moral duty but also the only right thing to do to stop a mass genocide against Jews, homosexuals, Slavs, Gypsies, Christians, socialists and all the people of good will killed by the Nazis.
    I bet capitalist pigs are not in that list?
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

  5. #65
    Miles
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    140
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterbruder44 View Post
    Where did YOU get that is the only reason behind WW2?
    I never said it was the only reason behind the war. Hitler never would have gained so much support if there weren't other economic, social, and political reasons (such as the treatment of Germany after WWI).

  6. #66
    Shashu
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    199
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    The Am Civil War did not start off being about the freeing of the slaves; it was the result of the war.
    WWII: when attacked- you fight! I'm have serious reservations that if Germany had not invaded Poland, but executed 1000s of Jews and other minorities, other powers would had stepped in.

    ....
    How about Lebensraum and the millions of Slavs killed? Surely defending against that is good even if as you say when someone attack you you defend.

    No matter how you slice it the only shade of grey for world war two is if Stalin was morally better then Hitler. I don't think anyone doubts that a Soviet Soldier was on a morally much higher level then a German soldier however.

  7. #67
    PikeStance's Avatar Imperial Splendour- PM
    Citizen Vault Staff

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Changchun, China
    Posts
    3,318
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNasoRomaLost View Post
    How about Lebensraum and the millions of Slavs killed? Surely defending against that is good even if as you say when someone attack you you defend.

    No matter how you slice it the only shade of grey for world war two is if Stalin was morally better then Hitler. I don't think anyone doubts that a Soviet Soldier was on a morally much higher level then a German soldier however.

    Your second point doesn't make sense, since I already stated that states do not act immorally anymore than they act morally. A state will always act amorally/ or out of its own self- interest, which addresses your first point. It is in the state's self interest to protect itself.

    Let's look at the War of Austrian Succession. Frederick the Great took the opportunity to gain Silesia- he acted out of his own self- interest. It wasn't immoral, it was an opportunity to increase his power and wealth and he took it. States that fought with Austria did so, not out ethical reasons, but out of their own self- interested needs.

    ---




  8. #68
    Diocle's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Genoa - Italy
    Posts
    7,927
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Pike, you are right about many points here, but the morality of the politicians has to follow other rules than the morality of the common people, Machiavelli founded on this basis the modern Political Science.

    Anyway I agree, if you are attacked you have to fight, and sadly I agree also on the conclusions: Until the allies could wait, how many deaths would be necessary to move their arses?

    My pessimism is growing.......

  9. #69
    Shashu
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    199
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Your second point doesn't make sense, since I already stated that states do not act immorally anymore than they act morally. A state will always act amorally/ or out of its own self- interest, which addresses your first point. It is in the state's self interest to protect itself.

    Let's look at the War of Austrian Succession. Frederick the Great took the opportunity to gain Silesia- he acted out of his own self- interest. It wasn't immoral, it was an opportunity to increase his power and wealth and he took it. States that fought with Austria did so, not out ethical reasons, but out of their own self- interested needs.

    ---
    However states actions are carried out by soldiers magistrates and other officials who's morality is determined by the culture. The culture of nazi-germany got millions of soldiers to commit among other crimes Lebensraum, and the Holocaust. The Polish culture inspired it's army to defend very heroicly against overwhelming odds; do significantly better against the Germans then any reasonable person could have expected; and then the survivors who weren't captured formed the Armia Krajowa and recruited civilians and fought the Germans in a series of battles where they stood no chance.

    One side's culture produced heroism even in the face of nearly 100% chance of defeat while the other sides culture produced some of the most evil activities humans have ever done.

    Lebensraum was not the standard way armies behaved in 1939-1945; it wasn't done to Germany Austria and Hungary during World War One it was something nazi Germany came up with.

  10. #70
    Pontifex Maximus's Avatar Milka Maniac
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    48,320
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Easy - the side that doesn't speak English is the bad side!

    Whichever side has the best moral justification for taking human life is considered the good side, I suppose, but that doesn't change the fact that wars can be fought for bad reasons.



  11. #71
    PikeStance's Avatar Imperial Splendour- PM
    Citizen Vault Staff

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Changchun, China
    Posts
    3,318
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNasoRomaLost View Post
    However states actions are carried out by soldiers magistrates and other officials who's morality is determined by the culture. The culture of nazi-germany got millions of soldiers to commit among other crimes Lebensraum, and the Holocaust. The Polish culture inspired it's army to defend very heroicly against overwhelming odds; do significantly better against the Germans then any reasonable person could have expected; and then the survivors who weren't captured formed the Armia Krajowa and recruited civilians and fought the Germans in a series of battles where they stood no chance.

    One side's culture produced heroism even in the face of nearly 100% chance of defeat while the other sides culture produced some of the most evil activities humans have ever done.

    Lebensraum was not the standard way armies behaved in 1939-1945; it wasn't done to Germany Austria and Hungary during World War One it was something nazi Germany came up with.
    Since when do people vote on moral grounds in any election? Charisma, mottos, and what you can do for me have far greater weight than morality. The point is a red herring anyway. A state is not the sum of its parts. Gov't will only appear to act morally to attain the consent of its people. In the end, it will pursue its own self- interest. If it is within the self- interest to defend itself, it will do so. Also, individuals may commit acts of heroism, but that is also a red herring. It has nothing to do with the actions of the state; it is just a benefactor of your patriotism and devotion.

    ---




  12. #72
    Shashu
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    199
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Since when do people vote on moral grounds in any election? Charisma, mottos, and what you can do for me have far greater weight than morality. The point is a red herring anyway. A state is not the sum of its parts. Gov't will only appear to act morally to attain the consent of its people. In the end, it will pursue its own self- interest. If it is within the self- interest to defend itself, it will do so. Also, individuals may commit acts of heroism, but that is also a red herring. It has nothing to do with the actions of the state; it is just a benefactor of your patriotism and devotion.

    ---
    The Nazi Party was losing it's advantage and declining when Hindenburg decided to put them in charge; they lost votes between the initial election and the final one and then they took over the machinery of state and the media and used it to successfully indoctrinate the nation. Germany wasn't even a democracy and the culture the nazis shaped Germany into in the 30s was tailor built for the commission of what we know to be the worlds worst atrocities.

    In contrast the culture in Poland inspired love for country and a willingness to sacrifice themselves for a less then 1% chance to free their people. I am only using the example of Poland because we started with that as an example;the only nation that would be hard to argue was good and on the allied side would be Stalin's USSR; but even there communist officials did commit horrible atrocities but the ideology allowed them to merely conquer and not utterly destroy. Could you imagine Russians living peacefully in Leningrad; the city where Hitler ordered the population exterminated on the fall of the city had Germans won there? I ask because Germans lived peacefully in Berlin once order was restored and officers finally gave the order to stop pillaging and raping, and there was no massive transfer of Russians into Berlin as colonists.

    The nation might not be the sum of it's part but it is the sum of it's culture or else you could say Tsarist Russia was the Roman Dominate; the Tsar's title was exactly the same as Diocletian's, and it was inherited through marriage to a Byzantine Heiress.

    Everyone says the North was the good side in the civil war; because Northern Culture didn't produce slave plantations.
    Last edited by TheNasoRomaLost; February 20, 2013 at 01:01 AM.

  13. #73
    PikeStance's Avatar Imperial Splendour- PM
    Citizen Vault Staff

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Changchun, China
    Posts
    3,318
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNasoRomaLost View Post
    The Nazi Party was losing it's advantage and declining when Hindenburg decided to put them in charge; they lost votes between the initial election and the final one and then they took over the machinery of state and the media and used it to successfully indoctrinate the nation. Germany wasn't even a democracy and the culture the nazis shaped Germany into in the 30s was tailor built for the commission of what we know to be the worlds worst atrocities.

    In contrast the culture in Poland inspired love for country and a willingness to sacrifice themselves for a less then 1% chance to free their people. I am only using the example of Poland because we started with that as an example;the only nation that would be hard to argue was good and on the allied side would be Stalin's USSR; but even there communist officials did commit horrible atrocities but the ideology allowed them to merely conquer and not utterly destroy. Could you imagine Russians living peacefully in Leningrad; the city where Hitler ordered the population exterminated on the fall of the city had Germans won there? I ask because Germans lived peacefully in Berlin once order was restored and officers finally gave the order to stop pillaging and raping, and there was no massive transfer of Russians into Berlin as colonists.
    So what! I am writing about the amoral actions of states, not the "goodness" of cultures in your mind. In any event, studies have repeatedly demonstrated that what happen in Germany can and does happen in other countries. Antisemitism was widespread in Europe and the world in general at the time. It didn't take much to convince people to "go along."

    Everyone says the North was the good side in the civil war; because Northern Culture didn't produce slave plantations.
    It wasn't the culture that didn't produce slavery, it was geography. Once their respective labor systems took root, it didn't take long for a unique social hierarchy & economic system to develop. If the War had ended in 1861 with the North victorious, I doubt that slavery would had been abolished. Even in 1865, The North was primarily motivated by revenge than a sense of nobility. Don't kid yourself, the war was fought for economic reasons which includes maintaining the peculiar institution in the South.

    ---




  14. #74
    Condottiere 40K's Avatar Tribunus Laticlavius
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    15,664
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    It's like mutations - they are already exist, they just need the right environment to appear sexy and spread.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  15. #75
    Shashu
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    199
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    So what! I am writing about the amoral actions of states, not the "goodness" of cultures in your mind. In any event, studies have repeatedly demonstrated that what happen in Germany can and does happen in other countries. Antisemitism was widespread in Europe and the world in general at the time. It didn't take much to convince people to "go along."



    It wasn't the culture that didn't produce slavery, it was geography. Once their respective labor systems took root, it didn't take long for a unique social hierarchy & economic system to develop. If the War had ended in 1861 with the North victorious, I doubt that slavery would had been abolished. Even in 1865, The North was primarily motivated by revenge than a sense of nobility. Don't kid yourself, the war was fought for economic reasons which includes maintaining the peculiar institution in the South.

    ---
    States may be more or less amoral; but the people who fight for them are not; the side with people willing to obey the higher the worst and do the worst is the bad side. In the case of Germany it did not follow the rules of war people agreed to at the time.

    Also on the worst enemy the Germans faced

    Soviets
    Crimes-Stalin allowed his men to rape women in conquered nations as a reward, slaughtered intellectuals and officers and soldiers, killed an arbitrary number of conquered people as a warning to future rebels. He also determined that Eastern Europeans were no longer able to co-exist with German communities after what the Germans did all over Europe; and while morally horrendous he was correct; Poles, Czechs, Lithuanians etc every group actively helped expel the local Germans.

    Germany
    Crimes-The Holocaust, Lebensraum, killing millions of Slavs, starving Eastern Europe, arbitrary price tags of conquered for each German soldier killed, absolute control over all media academia and other forms of communication to keep a helpless home nation in it's thrall, indoctrinating a generation of Germans to believe in an ideology written by monsters, use of child soldiers armed with innovations that made them dangerous and forced Russian Soldiers to fire back, taking over the economy of a once free society to make the people dependent on the state, looting Europe for everything from it's eggs to it's best art, enslavement of conquered people; granting it's soldiers the right to rape women as a reward, arbitrary killings to intimidate nationalists and much much more.

    The army with operations orders while certainly not good definitely less evil is the "good" army out of the two of those.

    The German Army can't even be considered morale equals of the Soviet Army; how could it be equal to the Polish, or British or American etc armies?

  16. #76
    PikeStance's Avatar Imperial Splendour- PM
    Citizen Vault Staff

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Changchun, China
    Posts
    3,318
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNasoRomaLost View Post
    States may be more or less amoral; but the people who fight for them are not; the side with people willing to obey the higher the worst and do the worst is the bad side.
    The first part is the point I addressed. The second part is a red herring.

    ---




  17. #77
    Minas Moth's Avatar Sabre of Secession
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    1,341
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    I find a war to be like an onion; it has many layers and it always hurts your eyes.

  18. #78
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Tribunus
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Transleithania
    Posts
    12,165
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    "World War" is a movie about a bunch of goddamn racist ass white mother ers killing each other for no ing reason. Don't stop now, I'm making popcorn, I heard there were ing Samurais in the ing sequel. Samurais with goggles in fighter planes mother er. World War Two: Samurai Resurrection A movie about a bunch of goddamn racist ass white mother ers killing each other because the Samurais with fighter planes were all like " you whitey!" and blew up Hawaii. They should have gotten Tarantino and RZA on that .
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; February 28, 2013 at 09:20 PM.
    Lurking at your bedside, watching you sleep.
    #Vampire Things

  19. #79
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Somewhere snowing... This damned holiday...
    Posts
    33,509
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Nationalist, Communist, Racist, Populist, Militarist, Imperialist, Republican.... all agree they should burn the world for fun in 1939.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by O'Hea View Post
    The only reason why Charlemagne came into this at all is because Hellheaven thought it'd be a fun way to troll some byzantophiles.

  20. #80
    Aquilifer
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    321
    Tournaments Joined
    0
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Good Side and Bad Side in War?

    Yes, there are good and bad sides in some wars, and even in the most screwed up and byzantine of bad wars some parts of the sides can rise above the norm though ethical and honorable behavior (the entire reason for the ideals of chivalry and bushido, to counteract the ugly reality).

    But overall, let's be blunt her:

    The Athenian invasion of Sicily: One of the few cases where pre-modern and modern morality and socio-politico-military thought are in agreement: an unjustified invasion for no higher goal and which accomplished nothing but misery.

    Even if the American Civil War was not fought at first to free slaves, it was fought to prevent a group of entrenched oligarchs from nullifying the basic premise of American liberty- adherence to an election- by force of arms and terror. If that alone does not qualify, I do not know *what* does.

    The Franco-Piedmontese war with the Habsburgs in 1859 was also *relatively* clearcut, given the fact that while the former were not angels and the latter did not contain any outright monsters, it was still an occupying force imposing the autocratic and frankly illegitimate whim of an absolute monarch on an alien population and which had committed atrocities against these communities on and off for centuries. There's something of a clear disparity here, at least.

    WWI, when you really, really get down to it and especially after the South Balkans (outside Greece) and Russia were defeated and occupied basically came down to the absolute monarchies or semi-absolute and definitely authoritarian monarchies versus the few democracies and republics. On top of the fact that the origins for the outbreak do not paint the Serbs or Russians in the best of lights but make the Habsburgs out to be the worst of all, *and* the fact that the conduct between the Central Powers and their enemies was not even remotely close to being equivalent? And ya, I'd call that.

    WWII.... is so obvious I do not even feel like mentioning it, and that's factoring in that the Good Guys happened to be alligned with some of the most notorious mass murders of the modern era (Mao miiight get off the hook since he hadn't really started racking up the bodies left and right, but Stalin and Chiang certainly don't and I would never ever bet on Mao).

    The Korean War? Semi-banana republic and legitimately free foreign allies versus totalitarian dictatorships? Yeah, this is also pretty easy.

    Greek Civil War? Not even that disputable.

    Vietnam? Again, oppressive banana republic and allies against mass-murdering totalitarian and frankly genocidal governments/guerilla groups and allies. The former win by default even if they shouldn't.

    Hungarian Revolution? Again, does anybody here really root for the Soviets in that?

    The Suez War: Again, like it or not, Nasser was a lot worse than even the Israelis at this exceedingly rough point in their history were, and the assessment of him as another Mussolini with a more permanent tan was pretty accurate. No matter how one feels about the control of the Suez or imperialism, the guy had no standing under the law to do what he did.

    I could go On. And On. And On. And On, And ONNN.....
    Last edited by Tiberios; March 03, 2013 at 09:13 AM.

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •