Falklands War of Words - The Empire Strikes Back

[tarvu]

I can already predict his response, if he ever responds

Dat's some expert debating right there doncha know

I responded its in spoilers of my last post (it was also in another post several pages back). Spoilers because Wub Pugs isn't supposed to be talking to me (he said so).

I'd like to help him try and resist it hurts him so much to argue with me I know.

Should have kept Heligoland - would have kept German maritime ambitions bottled up and possibly their optimism in check.

And if you ever gave Spain back Gibraltar I'm sure the Armada would rise from the sea floor and Spain would lord over the oceans of the world!

[Comrade_Rory]

Oh look people, Tarvu ignored everybody's points and repeated his arguments that have already been countered. I am shocked and surprised at this outcome. Who could have predicted?
PLOT TWIST!

[frozenprince]

It's like M. Night Shamalamadingdongdiddly incarnate.

[tarvu]

Oh look people, Tarvu ignored everybody's points and repeated his arguments that have already been countered. I am shocked and surprised at this outcome. Who could have predicted?
PLOT TWIST!

What point did I ignore how I'm from evil America, or Argentina has poor domestic policies or was ruled over by a military junta that started a war?

Or how Alaska is close to Canada, and America has bases throughout the world on islands that are technically closer to Australia (even though these are not disputed areas that Australia or Canada has ever to my knowledge attempted to claim)

Or about my country's genocide of Native Americans and how that means I shan't be allowed to speak on issues of colonialism. Leave that to civilized proper Europeans! (or just you know, people you agree with)

What else didn't I address? How I'm wrong and you are right so nanananana? Apologies.

[Denny Crane!]

Oh he is basing arguments off it looks close! Yes Garcia you do ignore posts and points, that and the use of basic English and terminology but unsurprisingly looks close" is a dumb ass argument.

[Derpy Hooves]

I responded its in spoilers of my last post (it was also in another post several pages back). Spoilers because Wub Pugs isn't supposed to be talking to me (he said so).

I'd like to help him try and resist it hurts him so much to argue with me I know.



And if you ever gave Spain back Gibraltar I'm sure the Armada would rise from the sea floor and Spain would lord over the oceans of the world!

So you don't plan to back up your claims. Guess I was right. Well then boy howdy, I guess I'll just "claim" that the US should give back Colorado to Britain because Britain claimed it in 1543 and they need it for their...territorial integrity yeah that's it.

[Plan C]

Address what the failures of Argentina on the domestic front? Or the actions of a military junta almost thirty years ago? Is that the gist of the debate?

Or is the gist of the debate a few islands on which lives less than 3,000 people. A small community by any standard, a community which is subsidized by the British government. Which is used as pawns by the British government to give them a claim on maritime shipping and mineral rights off of the coast of Argentina almost 13,000 km away.

The maritime shipping and mineral rights are the gist of this debate because without them the British would not give two about the islanders.

As for territorial integrity, I don't see it as ridiculous at all:



Looks pretty damn close to me. Why is it so offensive that they bring this subject up. You didn't want the Germans on the Channel Islands. The Germans didn't want you on Heligoland. You have your islands, stop trying to claim others' islands.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Maybe I found out how to place you on ignore instead of following you around and posting what a meanie you are.

I didn't but I'm not going to address your post I already did pages back, I brought up the various ways in which that community has been subsidized through free flights for medical treatment to subsidized wine imports, to the Falkland Islands Development Corporation.

Which despite Condottiere40k's snarky comments is not a brilliant shining example of the free market at work I am demonizing because I'm a covert operative of occupy wall street. It is actually a government initiative to funnel money to people wanting to start or expand local businesses. Again something I'm for personally, but which conservatives generally are not unless it bolsters a colonial population and keeps an empire "alive" (Terri Schiavo like living death state alive).

So, again, my question is - why do you consider Argentinian position as more "legitimate" than the British one? That's all I want to hear, why do Argentina's interests outweigh the interests of Falklanders, even if they do benefit from their allegiance to the UK?

I know what you're driving at but I honestly don't see on what basis?

[I WUB PUGS]

He's trying to be clever, but I'm still not seeing a dollar figure per head on the island. If the islands are in the black when it comes to aid versus what the UK gets out of it, his entire "subsidized colony" argument falls apart.

He's already devolving into mindless banter.

[Comrade_Rory]

I think we should take bets on which points he'll ignore and which points he'll purposely misunderstand to make a silly argument and then we'll take a big bet on how long he can keep it going.

I bet 5 Falkland island pounds on 2 more pages.

[I WUB PUGS]

$31,000 per year per citizen for defense.

Falkanders also pay taxes as Britons, they deserve to be protected the same.

They've had recent budget surpluses so doubtful there is any real substantial subsidizing needed. Its all defense spending, but it wouldn't matter if the islands went over to Argentina, the defense bill would still be the same. Its not like the UK would scrap those ships and men. They'd just be elsewhere.

As I routinely do, I'm digging into my own questions of other people's arguments. Sometimes I find I am wrong (like when DBH pointed out that California is in the red when it comes to Federal Tax paid vs received) and I change my position. I've been trying to prove tarvu's point that the Falklands are a subsidized colony and would fail without those monies, and I'm not seeing it anywhere.

The only reason why things are so expensive like imports or flights for major medical procedures not to mention the defense bill...................... IS BECAUSE ARGENTINA IS PRACTICING ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL WARFARE AGAINST THE FALKLAND ISLANDS.

If the islanders were allowed to fly to Argentina instead and negotiate with Argentina on trade then maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But then again the Argies can barely stay afloat while the islands are more or less self-sustaining and that's before any oil has been pumped.

I've also just read that the Argies are trying to get Santiago to block the islanders from getting any of those medical flights. Lovely government the Argies have there.

Disgusting. This is nothing short of an attempted embargo on all fronts. Thank god for the Royal Navy.

[Plan C]

He's trying to be clever, but I'm still not seeing a dollar figure per head on the island. If the islands are in the black when it comes to aid versus what the UK gets out of it, his entire "subsidized colony" argument falls apart.

He's already devolving into mindless banter.

His point, the way I read it, is that Argentina deserves the islands because they're potentially lucrative and geographically near but the truth is that the UK wants them also for somewhat similar reasons (potential profit) but also because they are already inhabited and managed by a British population. To me it's a deadlock and neither side holds a trump card here except Britain's already there (9/10th of ownership and all that) and more than capable of holding the islands with the use of force. What's there to discuss?

Put away the violin please, Tarvu, and let me know when you have found a constructive solution other than the one the British have to this dispute, that is to carry on as before. This is getting long in the tooth.

[Condottiere 40K]

Jun 17, 1579:Drake claims California for England


June 17

During his circumnavigation of the world, English seaman Francis Drake anchors in a harbor just north of present-day San Francisco, California, and claims the territory for Queen Elizabeth I. Calling the land "Nova Albion," Drake remained on the California coast for a month to make repairs to his ship, the Golden Hind, and prepare for his westward crossing of the Pacific Ocean.
On December 13, 1577, Drake set out from England with five ships on a mission to raid Spanish holdings on the Pacific coast of the New World. After crossing the Atlantic, Drake abandoned two of his ships in South America and then sailed into the Straits of Magellan with the remaining three. A series of devastating storms besieged his expedition in the treacherous straits, wrecking one ship and forcing another to return to England. Only the Golden Hind reached the Pacific Ocean, but Drake continued undaunted up the western coast of South America, raiding Spanish settlements and capturing a rich Spanish treasure ship.
Drake then continued up the western coast of North America, searching for a possible northeast passage back to the Atlantic. Reaching as far north as present-day Washington before turning back, Drake paused near San Francisco Bay in June 1579 to repair his ship and prepare for a journey across the Pacific. In July, the expedition set off across the Pacific, visiting several islands before rounding Africa's Cape of Good Hope and returning to the Atlantic Ocean. On September 26, 1580, the Golden Hind returned to Plymouth, England, bearing its rich captured treasure and valuable information about the world's great oceans. In 1581, Queen Elizabeth I knighted Drake during a visit to his ship.


Did Sir Francis Drake once claim California for Queen Elizabeth I of England?
Yes he did, in 1579.
He landed near what is now San Francisco whilst being pursued by the Spanish.
To evade them he was trying to reach the fabled Northwest Passage, which early navigators imagined would connect the Pacific with the Atlantic to the north of Canada. When he landed in California the Indians warmly welcomed him and his crew. They thought the Englishmen were gods and offered them their entire country along the California seaboard.
According to reports of the voyage, Drake graciously accepted the offer and ordered a brass plate be nailed to a post on the shoreline. It said that the territory was a dominion of Queen Elizabeth and would henceforth be known as New Albion.
In 1936 Mr Beryle Shinn, a San Francisco shop assistant, found a dirty old brass plate whilst enjoying a picnic on the shore north of the Golden Gate bridge. He took it home thinking it might be useful for car repairs. He left it in his garage and forgot about it for 8 months.
In 1937 he came across it again and cleaned it with soap and water. Able to decipher the word 'Drake' he sent it to Dr Herbert Bolton of the University of California for further study.
Following analysis of the plate a hot debate ensued as some felt it was an elaborate hoax.
According to contemporary reports, Drake landed in California at a spot marked by high white cliffs. But there were no cliffs at the picnic spot where the plate was found. There were also a few technical issues with the plate, but Dr Bolton was able to establish the plate could have dated from the right time period. The plate was vindicated when a chauffeur called William Caldiera came forward. He explained he had originally discovered the plate 4 years previously, and kept it for a short while before throwing it away close to where Mr Shinn found it. He originally found the plate in Drake's Bay, traditionally thought to be Drake's landing place, and it was an area with tall white cliffs.
Britain's title deed to California now rests in the University of California. So far, the British have graciously refused to take up the option.

[I WUB PUGS]

Already linked in my above reply, but mother of god are the Falklands boring.
http://www.falklandnews.com/index.cfm

Just read how little goes on there. Its like town hall minutes.

Edit: Also California was also barely settled late in the 18th century. And by "settled" I mean some small mission in Southern California and one in San Francisco and Monterey.

Guess who got the better claim..........England with no settlers or Spain with like 100? Also Russia had posts/forts all the way down to just north of San Francisco.

[Admiral Piett]

Argentina can pay for bidding in those oil wells like everyone else. It's not going to get it for free without defeating the British in a conflict, which they can't.

[I WUB PUGS]

We can drop the BP payments if Exxon gets first dibs.

with Exxon, Argentina...................see where that gets you.

[AUSSIE11]

I got ignored again.

Still waiting on numbers from tarvu, concerning subsidies paid to the "colonists".

I know that feel bro... I've given up already...

[Pielstick]

I've been trying to prove tarvu's point that the Falklands are a subsidized colony and would fail without those monies, and I'm not seeing it anywhere.

You could argue that at least part of the local economy is subsidised by the military personnel down there, but it would be a very poor argument.

As far as shops and services go there's relatively little the military personnel use - most of the personnel do their shopping and make use of the facilities at MPA, all of which are MOD owned. The biggest shop (in fact one of the only shops) there is the Falkland Islands West Store in Stanley, and it's horrendously expensive. Jobs perhaps? Again I don't think so, quite a lot of the workforce down there are actually from Tristan de Cunha. The military run their own transports down there between MPA (the airbase) and East Cove (the port). Most personnel eat/drink in one of the messes or the two all-ranks pubs at MPA and don't really use the local pubs or restaurants. In fact when I was down there last - the 25th Anniversary of the war - beer was free in all the local pubs on Liberation Day!

[Stavroforos]

Argentina can pay for bidding in those oil wells like everyone else. It's not going to get it for free without defeating the British in a conflict, which they can't.

Oh, I'm sure they'll manage to take some ships down, especially since Britain doesn't even have a capital ship.

[I WUB PUGS]

*snip*...especially since Britain doesn't even have a capital ship.

Got nothing on the Royal Yunanistanian Army-Navy.

[Stavroforos]

Got nothing on the Royal Yunanistanian Army-Navy.

We don't have colonies we keep with military oppression and bribery to warrant capital ships.