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Thread: The pope is resigning

  1. #321

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Equality is an inorganic, abstract view that has no correlation with reality (it is a byproduct of the fake and purely abstract systematization brought about by Enlightenment philosophers) and is based on a destructive individualism that sees people as distinctless atoms, individuals. It results in an illusion of freedom, that is in fact the worst sort of chaining and conformism that a man can ever deliver himself to, noticed well by conservative William Buckley.

    So the fact of the matter is - corporate and public bureaucracies today have much more power and employ it in a much more tyrannic fashion over the mass of quantified atoms than any past Christian king could ever hope to in his wildest dreams, even the most absolutist ones like Louis XIV or the most tyrannic leaders. The modern state is the most scary self-replicating bureaucratic leviathan that has ever been created, and as long as people like you try to break all the remaining ties (if we can speak of 'any' ties in the world today, which has suffered significant degradation on this field), the more the state will grow and the more the state will intervene to prevent chaos.

    This is what is happening in Europe and America in this precise moment. Since all spiritual ties and morality have been declared null and void, and man looks at nothing but his own little self as the center of everything, then the Super Nanny State is filling in the gap. Enjoy your little freedom while it lasts, and laugh at your ancestors who lived with far more tax evasion and far more autonomy than your sons and daughters will ever ever have, and that as far back as the 1960's, thanks to the planned implosion of what little remained of Christian charity, Christian values, morality and ties that bound for good, and not for evil.

    It doesn't fit with your view of a woman's place in the world?
    This is the Church view of woman.

    And what about homosexuality?
    This thread is not about "me". So the last question is: what is the Church view on homosexuality? That homosexual acts are against man's innate nature, that homosexuality is deviant and like so many deviances, reflects the stain of original sin, that while homosexual people are not evil per se, homosexual acts should be discouraged.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  2. #322
    Jom's Avatar A Place of Greater Safety
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    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    I'm asking about your views. I already know that the Catholic Church's views are backwards and evil. I just want to know if you're defending them so that in future I can save myself some time and simply skip over your posts.

    Also, you haven't explained how individualism is destructive and leads to the chaining of the individual. You've just affirmed something without any reasoning and then done a bit of name dropping, I suppose hoping that no one will question it as they haven't read Buckley. In fact, everything I've come across on Buckley (jr. I assume) shows that he's very much pro individualism, drawing a parallel between it and Christian values, as well as free enterprise, two things which Buckley regarded as very much desirable.

    Your second and third paragraphs are making extremely wide-sweeping affirmations, blaming extremely complex evolutions in personal freedom and the structure of government and states on a very simplistic and subjective cause: the loss in Christian values. Just because my cat has 4 legs does not mean it is a dog. The fact that in the UK the head of state is also the head of the church, and that the Archbishop of Canterbury and other bishops sit in the House of Lords does not really fit with your theory that "all spiritual ties and morality have been declared null and void". This would be where on Wikipedia you would find a little "[by who?]" next to your statement. That morality can or cannot exist without religion is also a huge debate that you've simply glossed over and decided that it cannot, so yet another flimsy basis for your assertions.

    So: try again without the name-dropping and huge leaps in flawed reasoning that's built upon an ever growing platform of dodgy assertion based upon what you've perceived and decided rather than what can actually be demonstrated. This is my big problem with discussing anything to do with religion with you: all of the changes in society which you perceive as negative, you just blame on a perceived decline in faith and Christian values. Your views are extremely simplistic and far too Christian-orientated.
    Last edited by Jom; February 21, 2013 at 03:28 PM.

    "For what it’s worth: it’s never too late to be whoever you want to be. I hope you live a life you’re proud of, and if you find that you’re not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again."

  3. #323

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    I'm asking about your views. I already know that the Catholic Church's views are backwards and evil.
    There is no such thing as "backwards". There is no such thing as Historicism. It's a fantasy and a fallacy.

    "My" views are incidentally coincidental with Catholicism. See Cardinal Turkson, or see the works of famous conservatives of the Continental (French) line like de Maistre, Cortés, Bossuet, etc...

    But this is irrelevant. I am irrelevant. No true traditional view of religion (in the Guenonian sense, which however must be adopted with certain caution) ever emphasizes the "I", because the "I" is never the center but subsumed to a higher central principle or even illusory. If you deviate from the center, then you destroy the whole axis of existential meaning. And in case of Christianity, everything exists to glorify God. Period.

    If God mandated me to be tortured and killed as a repentance for my sins, I would have to obey. But God is merciful, and we have only Him to thank for.

    As a matter of fact, outside Christian personalism and its bestowal of dignity upon the person, the individual simply does not exist at all. There is no such thing as an "individual", it's a fancy. A concretized imbecility. We all come from, depend upon, and go to God.

    Also, you haven't explained how individualism is destructive and leads to the chaining of the individual. You've just affirmed something without any reasoning and then done a bit of name dropping, I suppose hoping that no one will question it as they haven't read Buckley. In fact, everything I've come across on Buckley (jr. I assume) shows that he's very much pro individualism, drawing a parallel between it and Christian values, as well as free enterprise, two things which Buckley regarded as very much desirable.
    Personalism. See Burke, which is one Buckley's main sources of inspiration. Do not confuse that with the anarchic individualism of the Founding Fathers or of the Enlightenment.

    Your second and third paragraphs are making extremely wide-sweeping affirmations, blaming extremely complex evolutions in personal freedom and the structure of government and states on an very simplistic and subjective cause: the loss in Christian values. Just because my cat has 4 legs does not mean it is a dog. The fact that in the UK the head of state is also the head of the church, and that the Archbishop of Canterbury and other bishops sit in the House of Lords does not really fit with your theory that "all spiritual ties and morality have been declared null and void". This would be where on Wikipedia you would find a little "[by who?]" next to your statement. That morality can or cannot exist without religion is also a huge debate that you've simply glossed over and decided that it cannot, so yet another flimsy basis for your assertions.
    No model can ever account for all the variables. Especially in History, which is the most unpredictable and difficult field for systematization to work in (the phenomenal world, being unsubstantial and in perpetual flux, is not the rational neither teleological). We can only work with the generalizations proper of a broad POV - but needless to say, you also do that by parroting the obsolete progressivism of a historicist world view, which seeks to turn all our ancestors into cruel, "backward" (in regards to what?) savages who had to be "enlightened" and "educated" in order to stand in two legs and not pee on themselves.

    So: try again without the name-dropping and huge leaps in flawed reasoning that's built upon an ever growing platform of dodgy assertion based upon what you've perceived and decided rather than what can actually be demonstrated. This is my big problem with discussing anything to do with religion with you: all of the changes in society which you perceive as negative, you just blame on a perceived decline in faith and Christian values. Your views are extremely simplistic and far too Christian-orientated.
    Quod erat demonstratum.

    Your values are simplistic and based on a blasé secularism.
    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; February 21, 2013 at 03:33 PM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  4. #324
    Jom's Avatar A Place of Greater Safety
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    I just wanted to know your views so I could make a judgement about your worth as a person in my own personal opinion. Don't worry about it.

    It's not blasé to say that you can't blame the whole of the west's problems on not adhering as closely as you'd like to your preferred religion.
    No model can ever account for all the variables. Especially in History, which is the most unpredictable and difficult field for systematization to work in (the phenomenal world, being unsubstantial and in perpetual flux, is not the rational neither teleological). We can only work with the generalizations proper of a broad POV - but needless to say, you also do that by parroting the obsolete progressivism of a historicist world view, which seeks to turn all our ancestors into cruel, "backward" (in regards to what?) savages who had to be "enlightened" and "educated" in order to stand in two legs and not pee on themselves.
    This doesn't refute anything. In fact you agree with me, but try and mask that fact by mounting an attack on a strawman of my position. The Catholic Church is not "our ancestors", and I am not calling them as a whole backwards, just certain beliefs. And obviously in regards to modern humanist values that a homosexual is just as viable a person and not to be deemed "evil". If you don't regard these values as something worth holding, then you're in a rapidly diminishing minority. Luckily for you, your beliefs can find validation in the Catholic Church, but they do not hold a monopoly on morality.

    Try and keep gods out of your posts; I keep them out of mine. No doubt you regard that as something negative, but don't you think it's better to be arguing from a neutral empirical position?
    Last edited by Jom; February 21, 2013 at 03:42 PM.

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  5. #325

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Secularism is dead. The gods are alive. The gods dwell among us.

    I am fated for the grave pit. It would be stupid for me to center everything upon myself then. So much for "the dignity of the human person". Without God, there is no human dignity.

    By incidence, this is not even exclusive to Christianity. Hermeticism, the most Christian (and Pagan) philosophy, is also a might spring of wisdom.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  6. #326
    Jom's Avatar A Place of Greater Safety
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    Oh good, more assertions that no one can argue against because they're founded upon faith.

    It's great to see that's what you've been forced to resort to, though.

    Incidentally, my deity says you're completely wrong and as he's the fount of all wisdom for me, I refute everything you've said. That you don't believe in my deity automatically means you're wrong as you haven't been bestowed with dignity. I'm the only person here with human dignity because I believe in this deity. I feel sorry for all of you.

    "For what it’s worth: it’s never too late to be whoever you want to be. I hope you live a life you’re proud of, and if you find that you’re not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again."

  7. #327

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Oh good, more assertions that no one can argue against because they're founded upon faith.
    The importance of Philosophy is seeing. Which is done by action, which per se leads to self-realization, which leads to sight. What others cannot see, they must trust the Seer to see Himself. The Seer of Christianity is Jesus, and we have Faith upon him.

    Incidentally, my deity says you're completely wrong and as he's the fount of all wisdom for me, I refute everything you've said. That you don't believe in my deity automatically means you're wrong as you haven't been bestowed with dignity. I'm the only person here with human dignity because I believe in this deity. I feel sorry for all of you.
    Ohhh, except that it does not cut. Has your deity been backed by a 5000 year old priesthood lineage like Jesus, King of the Jews? Is your Seer God made Man, with proofs? Has your Seer descended to Hell, and returned? Has your Seer been conceived of a Virgin, fulfilling Prophecy? No. Then you're following an idol. Everything comes from sight and not dettached conjecture.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  8. #328
    Jom's Avatar A Place of Greater Safety
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    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    The importance of Philosophy is seeing. Which is done by action, which per se leads to self-realization, which leads to sight. What others cannot see, they must trust the Seer to see Himself. The Seer of Christianity is Jesus, and we have Faith upon him.
    You do. And anyone else who doesn't share in your view is blind? Sounds like quite an unhinged point of view and very conveniently impossible to argue against.

    Ohhh, except that it does not cut. Has your deity been backed by a 5000 year old priesthood lineage like Jesus, King of the Jews? Is your Seer God made Man, with proofs? Has your Seer descended to Hell, and returned? Has your Seer been conceived of a Virgin, fulfilling Prophecy? No. Then you're following an idol. Everything comes from sight and not dettached conjecture.
    Yes to all of that. I was in Hell yesterday. Prove me wrong. You just don't have enough faith and human dignity to see the truth.

    "For what it’s worth: it’s never too late to be whoever you want to be. I hope you live a life you’re proud of, and if you find that you’re not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again."

  9. #329

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by Jom View Post
    You do. And anyone else who doesn't share in your view is blind? Sounds like quite an unhinged point of view and very conveniently impossible to argue against.



    Yes to all of that. I was in Hell yesterday. Prove me wrong. You just don't have enough faith and human dignity to see the truth.
    This is an accurate description of the road you're following and the road which I followed... One day perhaps, you'll reach the maximum consequences, and then by sight the truth shall set you free (John). Aletheia is a disclosure, and I can teach you all the time - at the end of the day, if you don't see, then I can't do anything. It depends upon you and you alone, to Know. *Dare to know* (Kant).
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  10. #330
    Jom's Avatar A Place of Greater Safety
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    I'm not sure if I have enough human dignity to read it. I'll do some praying and get back to you.

    "For what it’s worth: it’s never too late to be whoever you want to be. I hope you live a life you’re proud of, and if you find that you’re not, I hope you have the strength to start all over again."

  11. #331
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    Just. Admit. It. Traditionalism is making a comeback everywhere and Catholicism is not the exception.

    The Enlightenment had its moments of peak delusion. 1968 was the top, and the beginning of the end. But now normalcy must return. Normalcy, civilization, higher standards of culture and superior intellectuality.

    We cherish for a future closer to God and King (and Pope, for the ultramontane fellas) and as far away as possible from gay-nazis, feminazis and hippies. As well as that crushing conformism which, as stated brilliantly by William F Buckley (a man whose Catholicism and taste for the harpsichord are to be well commended), chains the present brutally.

    Against that we proudly raise our voice. And our crosses. We will be back sooner than you expect.
    Do you have any idea how ridiculous this looks to those of us who are moderate Christians?

  12. #332

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Do you have any idea how ridiculous this looks to those of us who are moderate Christians?
    "Christians". Christianity is all but moderate, and the Gospel of Mark tells us precisely that. Or so do the Church Fathers. Or all Christian Saints. Or the Catholic Tradition.
    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; February 21, 2013 at 04:46 PM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  13. #333

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    There is no such thing as "backwards". There is no such thing as Historicism. It's a fantasy and a fallacy.
    Hmm. I personally take "backwards" to mean relying on "knowledge" from the past to make decisions today, even if circumstances are completely different. For instance relying on what ancient romans and greeks thought of pederasty in order to decide on a partner today would have bad results (unless you are a man of the cloth of course).

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    But this is irrelevant. I am irrelevant. No true traditional view of religion (in the Guenonian sense, which however must be adopted with certain caution) ever emphasizes the "I", because the "I" is never the center but subsumed to a higher central principle or even illusory. If you deviate from the center, then you destroy the whole axis of existential meaning. And in case of Christianity, everything exists to glorify God. Period.

    If God mandated me to be tortured and killed as a repentance for my sins, I would have to obey. But God is merciful, and we have only Him to thank for.

    As a matter of fact, outside Christian personalism and its bestowal of dignity upon the person, the individual simply does not exist at all. There is no such thing as an "individual", it's a fancy. A concretized imbecility. We all come from, depend upon, and go to God.
    My experience teaches me that I do exist, at the very least as an unique point of view. I can't imagine what anybody could do or say to convince me otherwise, no matter how mellifluous the prose.

    If God mandated you to be tortured, etc., he by definition would not be merciful or benevolent, unless of course one doubts his omnipotence.

    Perhaps you in fact believe that YOU are God?

    I read your link, or much of it at least, but I at least skimmed through all of it. The writer clearly put a lot of thought into it, but I'm afraid I don't fall into either side of his apparently bilateral argument.

    ATB


    Edit: I think moderate Christianity can be compared with secular Judaism. It's a thing, but it doesn't have much to do with the founding texts, a point I think we agree on.
    Last edited by Janne; February 21, 2013 at 05:04 PM.

  14. #334
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    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    Ohhh, except that it does not cut. Has your deity been backed by a 5000 year old priesthood lineage like Jesus, King of the Jews? Is your Seer God made Man, with proofs? Has your Seer descended to Hell, and returned? Has your Seer been conceived of a Virgin, fulfilling Prophecy? No. Then you're following an idol. Everything comes from sight and not dettached conjecture.
    Neither is/has Yours.
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  15. #335

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    My experience teaches me that I do exist, at the very least as an unique point of view. I can't imagine what anybody could do or say to convince me otherwise, no matter how mellifluous the prose.
    "I" as an aggregate comprising the body is an illusion. It is inherently linked to all other opposites and aggregates of the Universe, in a relationship of mutually interdependent polar opposites that cannot and will never exist in the absence of their mutual contradictions. You identify yourself with your body because of the limits of your own perception and your sensualism, and that's it, when as a matter of fact it's a thing headed for the grave pit, that can be destroyed at any time and is nothing but a passive receptacle, a vessel of the soul which controls it and that's it.

    Hmm. I personally take "backwards" to mean relying on "knowledge" from the past to make decisions today, even if circumstances are completely different. For instance relying on what ancient romans and greeks thought of pederasty in order to decide on a partner today would have bad results (unless you are a man of the cloth of course).
    The wonderful fallacy of historicism. I can't blame you since modern a-metaphysical humanity is stuck on historicism so deeply it's like drowning or getting water on the neck.

    Time has no relevance. Not at all. What is atemporal is what is relevant. And Christianity is beyond time. Any Tradition founded on mere becoming is... irrelevant and just a traditional-ism, which is what you're trying to say I'm arguing for - when I'm not.

    If God mandated you to be tortured, etc., he by definition would not be merciful or benevolent, unless of course one doubts his omnipotence.
    God is beyond any and all categories of discursive thought. We do not speak by univocity, selon by analogy - if ever at all. The Orthodox tell us that God is totally unlike anything created.

    Perhaps you in fact believe that YOU are God?
    Curious thing. Yes and no. Theosis is the act of becoming Christlike, and becoming Christlike is also the act of becoming God as in partaking his own nature while maintaining mutually separate identities. So yes, and no.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  16. #336
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    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Are you Catholic?
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  17. #337
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    Keep on posting Marie Louise von Preussen. I support you. Spread the message.
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  18. #338

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by Jom View Post
    I'm not sure if I have enough human dignity to read it. I'll do some praying and get back to you.


    I wish i could rep you some more, i shall have to take a note and return
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  19. #339

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Keep on posting Marie Louise von Preussen. I support you. Spread the message.
    Well . You asked for a justification as to why it's not "superstition". I gave one, out of sheer leisure and graciousness. I really don't care, because my job is done. The Catholic Church is much better than all of this.
    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; February 21, 2013 at 06:01 PM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  20. #340

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Ah, so many things wrong that I have hard time finding a proper start for that.

    Marie, you twist words like a professional troll or politician. I have to set things straight.

    You believe in tradition of Catholic church. Yet with same breath you deny that it should be judged by its history and tradition. Tradition is based on history...in essence, tradition is "doing things this way because it worked in the past", and, amusing thing about that, spiritual tradition has no set "benchmark" that could allow actually determining if it works. So what do you want, tradition and history, or neither. Because these two are intimately tied.

    And you talking about freedom and conformity? That's amusing. Religion is the ultimate conformity tool, and history of every religion just confirms that. Catholicism is actually one of leading worst offenders in this along with some Islamic branches. It forces conformity and restricts freedom on arbitrary basis, that's the worst kind. And dignity? You say that there's no dignity without god. But the opposite is true. How can there be dignity if we're a mere toys of an almighty being? You'd accept any order from your god, no matter how revolting and immoral would it be. That's the opposite of dignity. Your very existence doesn't have, in your mind, any meaning beside what's given to you by your god.

    You views on individuality are another example. You spew big words and names you think have meaning, but you're grasping for straws and assume contradictory dogmas just to patch up your hopelessly broken and twisted view of the world and try to convince yourself (a little piece of basic psychology here. Your strict adherence to dogmas and following their contradictions lead me to think that you're actually in no way certain in your opinions that are supported by your community, and the resulting internal conflict manifests itself this way) that your dogmas, your narrow view is superior to all others.But, back to individuality. In one post you say that individuality in religion is irrelevant, yet you also say that it's the only source of it? That's contradiction. But you caught glimpse of one good thought and twisted it. If there is an omnipotent creator god, then we're indeed just his product, and any our individuality comes from him. But if there isn't, we make our own fate. We are individuals in our own right only if it does not come as "gift" from superior being.

    What amuses me about you most are your accusations of bias and close-mindedness. You, of all people, strictly adhering to unproven dogmas in spite of contradictory evidence and unable to entertain any thought from different point of view. That's as close-minded and biased as can be.

    There was a time where I thought it's worthwhile discussing with you. Now, I don't think so.

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