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Thread: The pope is resigning

  1. #281

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    ... It is actually true, and backed by solid historical research from lots of intellectuals.

    As for philosophy, "subjective", "objective". We see here that Sar1n has a Cartesian bias. Science concerns the phenomenal, Science can measure what is numbered and quantitative alone (materialism). Therefore Science is objective.

    We have seen however in both the developments of absurdist existentialism and late idealism as well as the in the return to Aristotelianism that Cartesianism has been soundly refuted.

    What we have here is nothing but the leftovers of a deadbeat Enlightenment philosophy which is alive and well in the popular conscious. Perhaps in that fairytale land you referred to it is true, but as far as we are concerned, after post-modernism, the Enlightenment has been truly discredited as the source of any intellectual innovation. "Civilization", "Objective ideals grounded on Science", the "Triumph and Dignity of Man", etc... all of these are grounded on a humanism which is dead or dying. The XXI century, if the mass uplift of Christianity & Islam in the developing world shows, is going to bring the icy hand of religion back, whether the senile "Enlightened" crowds in the Old World like it or not, whether they recognize it or not.

    The great irony is that Christianity - which has been the true glue of Western Civilization - has maintained a far superior civilization for far more time than the "principles" of the Enlightenment can ever hope to.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  2. #282

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    ... It is actually true, and backed by solid historical research from lots of intellectuals.
    More likely backed by sectarian theologians.

    You can't claim that one form is a true religion and another is not and not have that perfectly reasonable implication.

    In fact it is not reasonable at all to claim that any form of Christianity is the true faith when they all use the same Council of Nicean bible that early christians did not use at all. Even the same basic book is not true to the eariest form of christianity so how is your religion more of a true religion than those of calvinists? It's not reasonable to suggest this at all unless you are some kind of theocrat.

    Pretend Christianity? No historian or unbiased theologian would use such unreasonable language. I would suggest a far more reasonable explanation.

    What I am seeing from your post is for every 10 seconds I read I get 1 second of information and 9 seconds of big words in a vain attempt to seem like philosophical dialogue.
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  3. #283
    Sir Pignans's Avatar The bringer of cheese.
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    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    ... It is actually true, and backed by solid historical research from lots of intellectuals.
    Define pretend Christianity.
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  4. #284

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Pignans View Post
    Define pretend Christianity.
    He did, and it's not reasonable at all.

    But outside mainly EO, Catholicism, and Oriental Orthodoxy, there is no Christianity.
    Anything that is not that.
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  5. #285

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Pignans View Post
    Define pretend Christianity.
    Only adopts part of the doctrine, has no apostolic succession, no sacramental grace, has heretic notions on salvation, etc...

    This is all for the EMM. But basically Apostolic Succession is the basic barometer. No Apostolic Succession, no Christian tradition, no "Christianity".

    But anyway these considerations of doctrine are all well cemented, attested, verified. Rock solid. This is not something for the subjective doxa of people with no intention besides doubting for the sake of doubting. Christianity is an extremely deep tradition, which has become tainted by many centuries of individualistic destruction and sectarian bickering - to the extent that even in lands that are traditionally part of its Catholicity, its meaning is obscure. People equate it with an emotional cult for idiots, when in its heyday it was much much better than its degenerate and fraudulent offshoots can ever suggest.
    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; February 18, 2013 at 03:11 PM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  6. #286
    Aikanár's Avatar no vaseline
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    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Heydays like the crusades or the spanish inquisition or sanctioned black slavery or what heyday do you exactly mean?


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  7. #287

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    One cannot commit the mistake of judging everything based solely on its material effects, or else we are going to have a silly debate (among many) between "Inquisition x Belgian Monastery Beer".

    But this is outside the scope of this thread.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  8. #288

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    One cannot commit the mistake of judging everything based solely on its material effects, or else we are going to have a silly debate (among many) between "Inquisition x Belgian Monastery Beer".

    But this is outside the scope of this thread.
    I guess it's time to count your straws, don't you think...

    As always, from the start.

    Tradition as core of life. This isn't a good idea at all. By definition, tradition is rigid, rejecting of new ideas and any difference. But without these, mankind can't advance. If cavemen had adhered to traditions above anything else, as is your philosophy, we'd still have only wooden clubs because "it be always good for ancestors". Things change. Universe changes. We must change with it.

    I can already see possible counter that under Catholic church, Europe grew. But church was only part of the mosaic of factors that formed medieval world. And it was pressure, from within and outside of church, that caused the growth. Church was always antagonistic to change, do I even need to put up examples?

    You don't understand at all the distinction of subjective and objective that I made. I am not rejecting subjective, non-cartesian subjects because of some dogmatic bias. I don't reject them at all, I just don't accept them as objective, because they can't be applied universally on every individual.

    It's funny that you keep claiming here that materialism is dead. It's far more alive than religion actually, and in modern world it has superior position to religious philosophies. You keep saying that some advancements in philosophy made it obsolete, but you can't even show it. And it displays your huge ignorance about nature of philosophy...

    In its core, philosophy deals with individual, subjective issues as well as objective. As outcome of logical process depends on the input, every philosophy is about the value its followers put on subjective and objective issues. Existentialistic philosophies put maximal value on objective issues and zero or low value on subjective. Your philosophy is derived entirely from subjective issues to the point where they can override objective. From this short explanation it should be evident to anyone that there is no single "true" philosophy. Therefore whole point about one philosophy overriding another is void.

    It's interesting how you keep pushing tradition. Tradition in sake of tradition. This is circular, as traditions are means to an end, not a goal in itself. And if Catholicism without tradition is nothing, then where it leaves it?

    There are many more things to write, but in the end, we'll be back to the same thing that's been going on for three separate threads and many posts between us two. You keep repeating that your philosophy, entrenched entirely in subjective dogmas, is superior to anything else. That is that 1/10 from your posts that Kanaric mentioned. Rest is just ballast to make it look better.

    I keep saying that because your philosophy is entrenched entirely in your subjective ideas, it is not applicable on anyone else, and because it is entirely based on subjective, you have no right to impose it or any of its conclusions and effects on other people that don't share these ideas. That's the short version. Rest is just me knocking out some outrageous claims you make in that 9/10.

    Edit: Goodnight everyone, have fun reading this.

  9. #289

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    You know the other christian faiths think the same thing about your religion? That it is fake and heresy, and pretend Christianity.

    I honestly don't see why you are not more reasonable.
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  10. #290

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Interesting... I would have defined fake Christianity as any Christianity that used an edited or poorly translated version of the 1900 year old OB (Original Bible, new testament ya'll) but I can see why you would be reluctant to adopt that definition
    Last edited by Lazarus; February 19, 2013 at 12:59 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Brian de Bois-Guilbert View Post
    the Church has only improved mankind in history

    For this there are words, but none that abide by the ToS.

  11. #291
    Aikanár's Avatar no vaseline
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    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    Only adopts part of the doctrine, has no apostolic succession, no sacramental grace, has heretic notions on salvation, etc...

    This is all for the EMM. But basically Apostolic Succession is the basic barometer. No Apostolic Succession, no Christian tradition, no "Christianity".

    But anyway these considerations of doctrine are all well cemented, attested, verified. Rock solid. This is not something for the subjective doxa of people with no intention besides doubting for the sake of doubting. Christianity is an extremely deep tradition, which has become tainted by many centuries of individualistic destruction and sectarian bickering - to the extent that even in lands that are traditionally part of its Catholicity, its meaning is obscure. People equate it with an emotional cult for idiots, when in its heyday it was much much better than its degenerate and fraudulent offshoots can ever suggest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aikanár View Post
    Heydays like the crusades or the spanish inquisition or sanctioned black slavery or what heyday do you exactly mean?
    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    One cannot commit the mistake of judging everything based solely on its material effects, or else we are going to have a silly debate (among many) between "Inquisition x Belgian Monastery Beer".

    But this is outside the scope of this thread.
    Not really an elaborate answer to develop your claim in order to answer my question.


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  12. #292

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    2 - Without Tradition, the Church is dead. There is no such thing as "the Church is within" - without the Tradition passed on directly since the Apostles, then the Church is null and void.

    The role of Eastern Orthodoxy is much more complicated. But outside mainly EO, Catholicism, and Oriental Orthodoxy, there is no Christianity. Only pretend Christianity.
    This contradicts Biblical passages which imply the 'Holy Church' is within as without.

    Furthermore, you are acting as an apologist for church policy by claiming that things like the institution of slavery, the crusades, the inquisition, church-sanctioned assassinations and torture, papal bulls which excommunicate an entire population for mere association with an 'enemy' of the church, indulgences, keeping the population uneducated by excommunicating or killing those who learn the bible themselves, and the complete lack of transparency in its bureaucracy as the acts of 'individuals'. It's not. It was church policy, just at it is the church's policy to cover up, transfer, or promote prestigious members of the clergy whom are guilty of violating secular laws. As an honest person, you should be joining the calls from people like the Archbishop of Vienna and many others whom are calling for and end to these disgusting and vile practices rather than trying to deflect the blame.

    This isn't the result of some persecution of the church, there is strong evidence from investigations launched in multiple countries which are uncovering a long history of fraud, evidence tampering, and protection of criminals. Even its charitable organizations, such as the Magdalenes in Ireland have a long history of abuses. The Irish government has found a large amount of evidence tampering on the church's as well as their own government's part for covering that up too.

    It is simply invalid that the Catholic church today has anything in common with the 'traditions' and 'discipline' of the past. The church is going to have to make some serious changes if it wants to rebuild its traditions and ties to 'Christ's church', because it has absolutely no business calling itself so. It is one of the most hypocritical, self-aggrandizing institutions on earth and this is why people have turned so much against it.
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; February 19, 2013 at 07:57 AM.
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  13. #293
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Just wait till Jesus hears about this:
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  14. #294
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Guys, why nobody react? Why nobody here has anything to say? Why the Catholics here are silent?

    We will have two (2) Popes!

    You have the occasion to live an event extremely rare: two popes in Rome!
    It was from the Middle Age we hadn't two popes!!

    It's incredible, astonishing!
    It happens one time in centuries!!
    It's an occasion to remember for your grandchildren!!!
    Two popes! Com'on!
    It's the first time from centuries!!!!

    And here, no one has anything to say?...........The youth today!!!

  15. #295

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    We have reacted to precisely that twice already, its just that nobody really cares about it
    Don't be a prick, don't be a whiny little child - Stop White Genocide and Praise Jesus.

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  16. #296
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    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by Marie Louise von Preussen View Post
    One cannot commit the mistake of judging everything based solely on its material effects, or else we are going to have a silly debate (among many) between "Inquisition x Belgian Monastery Beer".

    But this is outside the scope of this thread.
    This.

    I think people will have a hard time getting what your saying, but I follow your Platonic or Leibniz line. Material rot is everywhere, even more in big powerful institutions like the catholic church. However this is material. Humans being humans, but how does that decode the spirituality the church is striving for.

    People are foolish to write the entire spirituality off because the people within are people.
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  17. #297
    saxdude's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by flota View Post
    agree
    narco pope LOL
    Doubtfull, for obvious reasons, but his stance on sexuality is less than pleasing for a country like my own.

  18. #298

    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Being Catholic in name only, I see the Pope as a figurehead, having quite lost my fear of the Inquisition.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  19. #299
    Gertrudius's Avatar Hans Olo
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    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    Being Catholic in name only, I see the Pope as a figurehead, having quite lost my fear of the Inquisition.
    Nobody expects the Spanish inquisition.

  20. #300
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: The pope is resigning

    2nd in line favourite Ghanan Cardinal, superbly educated and well travelled man.

    - Doesn't believe women have a place in the Clergy
    - Doesn't believe child abuse scandals could happen in Africa because, wait for it, there is active discrimination against homosexuals in legislation. Thats right homophobic laws prevents child abuse.

    Can't believe a man like this exists in this world at this time. And there is a good chance he will be the next leader of morality of the catholic church!

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