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Thread: When atheism is no longer atheism.

  1. #101
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Denny Crane!
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Oh dear lord Sutekh come on. There is no claim god exists, there is only a lack of belief. If I had a pound for every time that was posted.

    So yeah not caring...well that could go either way. Kanarics absolute antagonism to atheism seems to suggest to me a similar idea with homophobes being homosexual, I suspect closet theism.

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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    I honestly do not believe the "a" in apatheism is the same as the "a" atheism or agnosticism. It seems to be the result of chopping the word "apathy" with the word of Theism. Ironically, a alternate name for apatheism is apathetic agnosticism, not theism.

    I found this interesting: The Universal Church of Apathetic Agnostic (statement of belief)

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  3. #103
    Setekh's Avatar Praefectus Legionis
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Oh dear lord Sutekh come on. There is no claim god exists, there is only a lack of belief. If I had a pound for every time that was posted.

    So yeah not caring...well that could go either way. Kanarics absolute antagonism to atheism seems to suggest to me a similar idea with homophobes being homosexual, I suspect closet theism.
    If I had a pound for every time someone confuses what atheism and apatheism is... I didn't get that antagonism to atheism in Kanaric's post where he labeled himself as an atheist.
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  4. #104
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Denny Crane!
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Well I'd never heard of it before now but then I check the Wiki page and like oh my god, turns out it is atheism which makes my point relevant.

    Apatheism (/ˌŠpəˈθiːɪzəm/ a portmanteau of apathy and theism/atheism), also known as pragmatic atheism or (critically) as practical atheism, is acting with apathy, disregard, or lack of interest towards belief or disbelief in a deity.
    You are confused between apatheism and apathetic agnosticism. But never mind eh, who needs dictionaries and definitions lets just make it up as we go along.

  5. #105
    Setekh's Avatar Praefectus Legionis
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Well I'd never heard of it before now but then I check the Wiki page and like oh my god, turns out it is atheism which makes my point relevant.

    You are confused between apatheism and apathetic agnosticism. But never mind eh, who needs dictionaries and definitions lets just make it up as we go along.
    Oh, Wikipedia. If you're gonna talk of definitions and dictionaries at least have the courtesy to use a dictionary. But, I bet you tried that and could not found an online dictionary that tried to define apatheism. That didn't stop you from making a statement about dictionaries and definitions of course.

    Then you could use your own logic to substantiate your claim which you chose not to. So, yeah, you can make it up as you go along.
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  6. #106
    Biggieboy's Avatar Senshi
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    I've had my share of conflicts with sutekh in the past, but i think i may agree on this one.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism

    Apatheism (/ˌŠpəˈθiːɪzəm/ a portmanteau of apathy and theism/atheism), also known as pragmatic atheism or (critically) as practical atheism, is acting with apathy, disregard, or lack of interest towards belief or disbelief in a deity. Apatheism describes the manner of acting towards a belief or lack of a belief in a deity, so it applies to both theism and atheism.
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Apatheism

    Apatheism (a highly original portemanteau of "apathy" and "theism") is the belief that the very question of whether or not deities exist is not relevant or meaningful in life. Apatheists are not even interested in addressing any claims for or against god(s). Almost literally "I don't care about gods."
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/apatheism.htm

    ...Unlike Theists, Agnostics, Atheists, etc, the unique feature of an Apatheist is that if it were possible to prove that a god exists, their beliefs and behavior would not change. Similarly, there would be no change if someone proved that god does not exist.
    Apatheism is a.k.a. pragmatic Atheism, and practical Atheism.

    An associated term is Apathetic Agnosticism, a.k.a. Pragmatic Agnosticism. This is the view that millennia of debate has neither proven nor disproven the existence of a god or gods. However, even if one or more deities exist, they do not appear to be concerned about the fate of humans. Thus, their existence has little impact on humanity and should be of little interest.
    so from what i've collected from looking around on the internet (not the best source, but ok) is that there IS a difference between apatheism, atheism and apathetic agnosticism, or that it COULD be a difference between apatheism and apathetic agnosticism. So you could either apathetic theist OR atheist for example.

    What's the point of all this semantics though?
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  7. #107
    Himster's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    Theism or atheism is simply not applicable for someone who doesn't care about whether god exists or not.
    There is no middle ground between being something and being not-something. Theism is a something and atheism is that not-something.
    Someone who doesn't care, does not believe in god/gods and therefore cannot be a theist, someone who isn't a theist is an atheist. Perhaps atheism's (less popular) synonym is more to your tastes: non-theism.

    Apatheism doesn't make the claim that there is no god, atheism does that.
    Atheism does not make that claim, that's a common misconception derived from the fact that the most vocal atheists do infact claim there is/are no god/gods.

    What is my motivation?
    That was rude and presumptuous of me, I apoligise.
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  8. #108
    Setekh's Avatar Praefectus Legionis
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    There is no middle ground between being something and being not-something. Theism is a something and atheism is that not-something.
    Someone who doesn't care, does not believe in god/gods and therefore cannot be a theist, someone who isn't a theist is an atheist. Perhaps atheism's (less popular) synonym is more to your tastes: non-theism.
    Not caring about the god's existence is the middle ground. A true apatheist doesn't believe in this or that way. S/he wouldn't believe god's existence or non-existence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Atheism does not make that claim, that's a common misconception derived from the fact that the most vocal atheists do infact claim there is/are no god/gods.
    It does by definition and etymology. "Theos" means god. Theism is basically doctrine of god and atheism is doctrine of no god or doctrine of without god. Atheism is belief in non-existence of god.
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  9. #109
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Denny Crane!
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    Oh, Wikipedia. If you're gonna talk of definitions and dictionaries at least have the courtesy to use a dictionary. But, I bet you tried that and could not found an online dictionary that tried to define apatheism. That didn't stop you from making a statement about dictionaries and definitions of course.

    Then you could use your own logic to substantiate your claim which you chose not to. So, yeah, you can make it up as you go along.
    Find me a contrasting source but you cant I guess hence this little rant.

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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    It does by definition and etymology. "Theos" means god. Theism is basically doctrine of god and atheism is doctrine of no god or doctrine of without god. Atheism is belief in non-existence of god.

    Most definitions I have come across have stated that Atheism is the belief that there is no God. Most atheist I have met take this stand. However, my cousin explicitly states that there is NO God. Also, Atheist tend to be more explicit when it comes to religion. That is God of any sacred text does NOT exist.

    I have to admit, however, it is a bit baffling that on this forum there seems to be a great number of people who like to "insist" what other believe and don't believe despite a great number of people objecting to it. Then gain, labels have always been problematic- people tend to lazily argue against the label and not to the person. ironically, the OP has already admitted to being an Atheist. He self- labelled, but doesn't seem to be good enough.

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  11. #111
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    I've never heard of the term Apatheism. I am familiar with the term Agnostic Atheism, as that's what I am. I don't believe there is a god(s), I suppose their could be, but I really care less either way.

    Sure, a deist god could be possible, but you'll never be able to observe it, or determine the difference between a "divine intervention" and some area of your brain that is functioning in a certain way. Hell, Occam's Razor is the entire idea that you can't find your way to belief in "God", you have to believe it on faith.
    Last edited by Slaytaninc; February 25, 2013 at 09:46 AM.
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  12. #112
    Setekh's Avatar Praefectus Legionis
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Find me a contrasting source but you cant I guess hence this little rant.
    Nice try but you can't really evade this. You made a claim about definitions and dictionaries without having an actual dictionary backing you up. You should simply admit that you made a failed claim. I don't see why anybody should take your comments on this seriously if you're unable to acknowledge such a simple yet obvious mistake. The fact that most popular online dictionaries like Merriam Webster or Dictionary.com is evident to its simplicity.

    Calling me pointing out your failure as a rant is quite pathetic thing to say as well.
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  13. #113
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    Not caring about the god's existence is the middle ground. A true apatheist doesn't believe in this or that way.
    Not caring is not believing. An apatheist is not a theist.

    S/he wouldn't believe god's existence or non-existence.
    And therefore falls under the umbrella of atheism, not all atheists are explicit/strong-atheists or anti-theists now matter how much you wish it were different.

    "Theos" means god.
    Yup and "a" means without: as in without god, meaning everyone who is not a theist. In the exact same way everything that is not symmetrical is asymmetrical, same goes for historical, gnosticism, morality etc.

    Theism is basically doctrine of god and atheism is doctrine of no god or doctrine of without god. Atheism is belief in non-existence of god.
    "a" doesn't mean "the opposite of" that'd be silly. It just means without. This is a lot simpler than you're making it. Not all self-affirmed atheists believe there is no god. Your definition is too narrow and doesn't include all atheists and therefore can't be correct.
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  14. #114
    Setekh's Avatar Praefectus Legionis
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Not caring is not believing. An apatheist is not a theist.
    You should read what I write more carefully.

    Not caring is not "not believing". That's a stupid thing to claim. If you don't care then neither option is applicable to you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    And therefore falls under the umbrella of atheism, not all atheists are explicit/strong-atheists or anti-theists now matter how much you wish it were different.
    Not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Yup and "a" means without: as in without god, meaning everyone who is not a theist. In the exact same way everything that is not symmetrical is asymmetrical, same goes for historical, gnosticism, morality etc.
    This has been addressed before. Taste is not symmetrical or asymmetrical. Not caring whether god exists or not works the same way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    "a" doesn't mean "the opposite of" that'd be silly. It just means without. This is a lot simpler than you're making it. Not all self-affirmed atheists believe there is no god. Your definition is too narrow and doesn't include all atheists and therefore can't be correct.
    Your argument can be summed up as saying that my argument doesn't fit yours so it's wrong. That's indeed a silly argument to make.

    a- means without. I never said it means the opposite of. The- means god coming from theos. -ism means doctrine. Atheism is doctrine of no god. Theism is doctrine of god.

    ---

    Apatheism is a very hard trait to gain. Most people either believe that god exists or believe that it doesn't. Most atheists if not all believe that god doesn't exists.
    Last edited by Setekh; February 25, 2013 at 01:03 PM.
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  15. #115
    MaximiIian's Avatar Tribunus Augusticlavii
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    People who don't believe in a deity but try to shrug their belief system or thoughts off as some 'alternative' term like apatheism or agnosticism are merely trying to avoid the stigma placed on atheism. But that's silly; it perpetuates that stigma, which ought not exist. There shouldn't be any stigma for holding personal beliefs, or non-beliefs, on general topics, as long as the opinion in question isn't one that is harmful to oneself and others.
    An apatheist is an atheist; just one that's less concerned about the debate than other atheists. And there's no shame in that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    a- means without. I never said it means the opposite of. The- means god coming from theos. -ism means doctrine. Atheism is doctrine of no god. Theism is doctrine of god.
    You're reading it too literally. A word can mean something more abstract than the literal translation of its component parts.
    Example relevant to myself: "pagan" derives from a Roman word meaning "rustic" or "country". If we went with the literal meaning, we could use "pagan" to refer to any rural folk, country bumpkin, or hick. But we don't The word means something more abstract than its root.

  16. #116
    Himster's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Most atheists if not all believe that god doesn't exists.
    Most is not all. Many atheists (including myself) don't believe that god doesn't exist, yet I am, and others like me are: atheists.
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  17. #117
    Matthias's Avatar Banzai jūden-ki
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Apatheism is like agnosticism. Agonsticism says you don't know, but you could believe or have a lack of belief (there is no middle ground here, much as people might want to pretend). Apatheism (from what I've read on here) says you don't care, but once again, you could believe or have a lack of belief.

    It's simple. Apatheism addresses whether you care about the question. Agnosticism addresses whether the question can ever be answered (as knowledge). Both of these are fully compatible with atheism or theism, since neither addresses your belief or lack thereof.

    Some people do use the agnostic term (and apatheism here) in confused ways to avoid being associated with atheism, which does still carry heavy stigma in many societies/families, even in the west. Atheism, as a lack of belief, contains all sorts of people, from those who say they believe there is no God, to those who say they don't know of there is a God, but they have no reason to believe so, so it's a very broad term, and one that has been made into a slur by many, with certain caricatures and preconceptions of such a broad group keeping many atheists "in the closet", even denying it to themselves.

  18. #118
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Denny Crane!
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    Nice try but you can't really evade this. You made a claim about definitions and dictionaries without having an actual dictionary backing you up. You should simply admit that you made a failed claim. I don't see why anybody should take your comments on this seriously if you're unable to acknowledge such a simple yet obvious mistake. The fact that most popular online dictionaries like Merriam Webster or Dictionary.com is evident to its simplicity.

    Calling me pointing out your failure as a rant is quite pathetic thing to say as well.
    There is no definition in dictionaries, the only sources are the likes of wkipedia:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apatheism

    There is no source. So nice evasion. You couldn't find a contrasting source, what I posted is absolutely correct, so man up and admit it!

  19. #119
    Setekh's Avatar Praefectus Legionis
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Most is not all. Many atheists (including myself) don't believe that god doesn't exist, yet I am, and others like me are: atheists.
    I'm not sure what you are yet but you're not an atheist.

    This whole idea that anyone who is not a theist is an atheist is just some people's effort to not be put in a similar basket as the theists. They are trying to make atheism into something that it's not, different from theism in form.


    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    There is no definition in dictionaries, the only sources are the likes of wkipedia:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apatheism
    So, basically, when you made claims about reading a dictionary or a definition you were talking out of your ass. Thanks for admitting that, I just hope you didn't do it in such a destructive manner.
    Last edited by Setekh; February 25, 2013 at 06:44 PM.
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  20. #120
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Denny Crane!
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    Default Re: When atheism is no longer atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSutekh View Post
    I'm not sure what you are yet but you're not an atheist.

    This whole idea that anyone who is not a theist is an atheist is just some people's effort to not be put in a similar basket as the theists. They are trying to make atheism into something that it's not, different from theism in form.




    So, basically, when you made claims about reading a dictionary or a definition you were talking out of your ass. Thanks for admitting that, I just hope you didn't do it in such a destructive manner.
    I do love the backpedalling and desperate need to avoid the fact that you didn't understand the word you brought up, that you hadn't even looked at its usage at all. I mean I could have forgiven that if it wasn't for the desperate attempt to make my post seem something like it wasn't.

    You claim I brought up dictionaries lets look at the post:

    Well I'd never heard of it before now but then I check the Wiki page and like oh my god, turns out it is atheism which makes my point relevant.

    Apatheism (/ˌŠpəˈθiːɪzəm/ a portmanteau of apathy and theism/atheism), also known as pragmatic atheism or (critically) as practical atheism, is acting with apathy, disregard, or lack of interest towards belief or disbelief in a deity.
    You are confused between apatheism and apathetic agnosticism. But never mind eh, who needs dictionaries and definitions lets just make it up as we go along.
    Who needs dictionaries. That was said in reference to the fact that I'd never heard of the phrase, with good reason, it doesn't exist in dictionaries so indeed who needs them. But no one else who looks at the issue recognises your definitions only mine, so my question still stands, who needs dictionaries? Well apparently you don't need sources, logic or dictionaries to confirm anything. You are counting on aggression and condemnation to confirm your points and it is a weak stance. The only sources that recognise your word confirm it in CONTEST TO YOUR POINT. You don't like that because, hey you aren't weird you don't like being wrong. But you are wrong, boohoo. Man up.
    Last edited by Denny Crane!; February 25, 2013 at 09:00 PM.

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