Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

[I WUB PUGS]

You know the Japanese once tried to claim the entire Pacific...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Caelifer_1991]

Whatever happens between the US and China, I say that the EU and it's member states stay out of it. It's not our struggle, and I don't wish to see us fighting a war, economic or literal, that is not our concern. Better that the two superpowers deal with their relations themselves, and that we tend to the many issues that affect us at home.

[I WUB PUGS]

Thank you, we'll see if the Aussies and Chileans can send the 5 ships that you refuse to.

[Riverknight]

Why hate him for his opinion, that makes perfect sense pug?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[lemondude]

I wouldn't care, and i wouldn't be paranoid about it like you.


Are you serious with this? the US has naval bases in Asia because the US has allies in Asia and has pledged to protect countries like South Korea and Japan from aggression from other countries.

Your entire argument seems to be "Its not fair!"

To your first Argument, nothing has even happened and the US is already saying China a threat. So if you are not paranoid then it's just you.

You know I once heard on CNN, not the best source but whatever, that the US can no longer use gun boat diplomacy on China? I know that the US won't war with China, but the fact that some still sees this as an option just not an realistic one tells you something about the mentality. Why don't the US gunboat diplomacy Russia? Or the Soviets, it's just as much an enemy if not more so than China.


If you are white American or any European, then you can't understand the mentality of Chinese. But I don't blame you cause you guys worked hard for your status and power, it's only fair that you reap the rewards. But now it's time for China to have a bigger piece of pie, so sit back and relax cause it won't affect America or Europe. Maybe America a little, but just that you no longer need to spend 700 Billion on the military anymore.

China only wants the sea and oil, they don't want land and certainly not another 100 million poor people. China still have to get the rest of the 200-300 million people out of poverty in this decade.

So believe me when I say no Chinese wants the Philippines or Vietnam or even South China Sea to some extent, just want to take back it's place as the undisputed power in Asia.

[I WUB PUGS]

Europe is part of this planet and does trade-a-plenty in Asia. This isn't just Uncle Sam pulling out his cock and sticking it in Mao's eye socket for lulz.

If Europe doesn't want to be involved then get up from the table and sit down on the floor with the dogs and wait for scraps to fall.

[Caelifer_1991]

Europe is part of this planet and does trade-a-plenty in Asia. This isn't just Uncle Sam pulling out his cock and sticking it in Mao's eye socket for lulz.

If Europe doesn't want to be involved then get up from the table and sit down on the floor with the dogs and wait for scraps to fall.

... Or we could devote our resources to the solving of our own problems, restructure the southern economies, improve integration, reform the EU wide political system, work on a unified military, deal with those states that wish to join us and the implications of their joining our already fragile framework. Right now we can barely deal with our own problems, we should not consider wasting the barely noticeable growth that we have on external issues on the opposite side of the planet. If the US cares so much, let it deal with it. We have very little to gain in comparison to the potential costs.

[I WUB PUGS]

You have nothing to gain by securing the economic vitality of emerging markets in Asia?

Okay. As long as you don't complain when you're blocked out from dealing with those nations.

[Caelifer_1991]

You have nothing to gain by securing the economic vitality of emerging markets in Asia?

Okay. As long as you don't complain when you're blocked out from dealing with those nations.

The most effective way of ensuring economic vitality in the region is to prevent war, our sending some ships won't prevent that. If we did, all it would likely do is stengthen the US position, whereas it's better that the two powers remain roughly on par with each other, so as to prevent either one from being too hasty. As for dealing with those nations, all that should matter to us are economic deals, and we shouldn't need to send our navy to make that possible... and infact we don't. This isn't the 1800s.

[Vanoi]

To your first Argument, nothing has even happened and the US is already saying China a threat. So if you are not paranoid then it's just you.

And even if ti did happen, i would not care. Again China is just paranoid.

You know I once heard on CNN, not the best source but whatever, that the US can no longer use gun boat diplomacy on China? I know that the US won't war with China, but the fact that some still sees this as an option just not an realistic one tells you something about the mentality. Why don't the US gunboat diplomacy Russia? Or the Soviets, it's just as much an enemy if not more so than China.

The US doesn't use gunboat diplomacy anymore, period.

But now it's time for China to have a bigger piece of pie, so sit back and relax cause it won't affect America or Europe. Maybe America a little, but just that you no longer need to spend 700 Billion on the military anymore.

And here's the problem. You think China has some sort of claim to be a superpower in the area at the expense of its neighbors, when it does not.

China only wants the sea and oil,

That they don't have claim to.

[I WUB PUGS]

You're missing the point. When China is trying to claim the entire area short of actual shoreline and there isn't a single European ship in theater who do you think those nations are going to remember?

Or is this really a US vs China thing?

I'm sure Vietnam, Japan and the Philippines not to mention Taiwan all feel the same way.

Gunboat diplomacy pfft, the only counter to it is other gunboats. You don't break blockades with kind words and protest. Ask the Palestinians about it.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

The most effective way of ensuring economic vitality in the region is to prevent war, our sending some ships won't prevent that.

The most effective way of ensuring economic vitality is by enforcing a liberal model of international affairs. It's not only the best way for trade to flourish, it's also morally right. European countries absolutely should follow the USA in wherever this goes. We are China's largest market. Of course, any naval presence is going to be small and solely from a few nationalities, even if subsidized by others, but it's symbolism, it's not like anybody is going to fight.

... Or we could devote our resources to the solving of our own problems, restructure the southern economies, improve integration, reform the EU wide political system, work on a unified military, deal with those states that wish to join us and the implications of their joining our already fragile framework. Right now we can barely deal with our own problems, we should not consider wasting the barely noticeable growth that we have on external issues on the opposite side of the planet. If the US cares so much, let it deal with it. We have very little to gain in comparison to the potential costs.

Thankfully our governments can deal with more than one problem at a time. What we have to gain? That's the same reasoning that is bringing China to try and conquer others. Well, apart from the immense prosperity and security provided by a liberal model of international affairs, we have nothing. In other words, we have loads to gain.

[Captain Jin]

The most effective way of ensuring economic vitality is by enforcing a liberal model of international affairs. It's not only the best way for trade to flourish, it's also morally right. European countries absolutely should follow the USA in wherever this goes. We are China's largest market. Of course, any naval presence is going to be small and solely from a few nationalities, even if subsidized by others, but it's symbolism, it's not like anybody is going to fight.

Exactly right. European Navies don't need to commit an armada to illustrate to the Chinese that this sort of behavior isn't going to be tolerated. It's just an symbol, as you said, that China should be working with the order of things and not against it. The world's most prominent Navies should be protecting global commons from piracy and rogue nations aspirations for something more maniacal-- not bullying little neighbors.

[Menelik_I]

Gunboat diplomacy pfft, the only counter to it is other gunboats. You don't break blockades with kind words and protest. Ask the Palestinians about it.

Or the Israelis ... there was that small event known as "The Closing of the straits of Tyran" that the USA and England promised to solve by sending a "International Peace fleet" but it took so long that Jerusalem decided to roll its tanks to Suez in 1967.

So yep, Blockades are one of those things that are best solved with an appropriate amount of TNT.

More specifically to the OP, the South East Asian countries should form a defensive cooperation to square off against China by working towards an interlocking Anti-ship cruise missile network and some descent Navies elements as second strike elements preferably of the Tentacles-Gangnam style Nippon-Korean type, not because I am a genius Armchair Admiral but because we all know how quickly the USA can dump its allies when it is convenient, so one day they might wake up with a "quick guide to speaking Mandarin" on heads.

China is committed to its Imperial gun boat policy, and TNT is the only cure.

[lemondude]

Exactly right. European Navies don't need to commit an armada to illustrate to the Chinese that this sort of behavior isn't going to be tolerated. It's just an symbol, as you said, that China should be working with the order of things and not against it. The world's most prominent Navies should be protecting global commons from piracy and rogue nations aspirations for something more maniacal-- not bullying little neighbors.

Don't want to be rude, but this is what I am talking about. You want to illustrate to the Chinese what's tolerated. What are we your child?

When the US wall street screwed everyone over why didn't the people say oh we will teach you a lesson. Why is everyone condemning Palestine when Israel is really not the beacon of human rights.

Power is king. That's just the way it is, not the best but it is what it is.

How many people still remember Europeans coming to the rest of the world, how many still remember German third reich. The answer is nobody, in the sense that they don't want to do business or become allies because of it. People have gotten over way worse.

Today China looks bad, tomorrow when China is a true superpower, nobody will care.


To Menelik_I
By the end of this decade, it wouldn't matter if all of Asia were to unite. And today certain the ASEAN countries together is not enough to deter China.

BTW as soon as these ASEAN countries admit the seas are Chinese I'm sure they will get their piece of the pie as well. You just can't get the same amount when we are so far apart economically, militarily and historically.

[Petrucci]

But much like the Mexico American war, the military strength is not even close and yet the mexicans don't cede California to America.

You think Mexico would say no to anything Americans ask today? unless they ask for complete annexation.

Do you know how WWI started?

China was the strongest country in the world before they decided to swap from mechanical to societal matrix of reproduction,which happened in 14,15 century IIRC. Cut the long story short they switched from development to harmony model.

Seems like gibberish, particularly the bolded part?

Seem you are unfamilliar with general system theory and a I don't have time nor will to explain you, so I tried to do it on quick way.

Except that the Europeans were not responsible for the collapse. The Qing Empire was long in decline and when the wars between that dynasty and the British and subsequently British and French took place China was nowhere near being the strongest country in the world. China had been devastated by its own as well given the Taiping rebellion. So hardly any of that is foreigners fault. And China has never been a stable country throughout its history. There were civil uprising constantly, civil wars all the time. So you can't make some claim that foreigners were responsible for usurping Chinese strength. Certainly the country was embarrassed after getting dominated in the Boxer Rebellion, but such is the case with government sanctioned violent uprisings that target foreigners whether they are civilians or not.

I didn't say they made China collapse but they certainly helped. Also I talked about feelings of Chinese citizens. They felt embarrassed and then blamed white people for devastation they made and devastation caused by other factors.

So is China morally superior or inferior to Imperial Germany?

Define Imperial Germany, First, Second, Third reich? Do you refer to moral superiority of their politics or moral superiority of their citizens.

It wasn't China back then. Also, not all white people are Europeans or come from Europe. Just face it, there have been genocides and ethnic cleansings of white and brown peoples in Central Asia since antiquity, and while Turks and Mongols were the main perpetrators, the Han and their allies weren't uninvolved. Even today, the Chinese government is trying to suppress Central Asian cultures. I'm not a fan of Uyghur movements or Tibetan theocrats, but that doesn't mean I support the government enforced Han/Hui mass immigration to their lands, either.

Steppe people don't belong to Indo-European family and thus they are not exactly white. I'm not making some racial classification but clarifying that people from central Asia are not same as western people.

@EU-China relation. As we know EU is China's biggest mark with tendency to do the same on the other side.

[Chukada1]

Just give up.

Chinese Monroe Doctrine.

[lemondude]

Do you know how WWI started?

Do you know how WW1 didn't start during the French Prussian war, Prussian Austrian war? You know what the difference is between WW1 and the Bismark era?

[Denny Crane!]

Thank you, we'll see if the Aussies and Chileans can send the 5 ships that you refuse to.

Yeah...the UK is part of the EU and despite being small fry we've got about a fifth of the strength of China's navy and one of those being an aircraft carrier, not to be sniffed at.

You're missing the point. When China is trying to claim the entire area short of actual shoreline and there isn't a single European ship in theater who do you think those nations are going to remember?

Or is this really a US vs China thing?

I'm sure Vietnam, Japan and the Philippines not to mention Taiwan all feel the same way.

Gunboat diplomacy pfft, the only counter to it is other gunboats. You don't break blockades with kind words and protest. Ask the Palestinians about it.

China if it did decide to start getting aggressive would be going it alone with no allies with perhaps the exception of North Korea (whohoo) and no one can go it alone against the world. Russia wouldn't stand with them because they've nothing to gain, India is also an emerging superpower who is edgy with china and they'd cripple themselves by losing all of their economic ties to ASEAN.

They are already losing export capacity to Thailand, Vietnam, Burma is opening up and very friendly to the US and not China whose support is an unwelcome reminder of where they are going from, Cambodia has reserves directly off its shore which China can't hope to touch which means its economy is soon to explode...it seriously just can't do what this nationalistic dreamer wants to do because...I don't know a bad childhood or whatever.

[Menelik_I]

To Menelik_I
By the end of this decade, it wouldn't matter if all of Asia were to unite. And today certain the ASEAN countries together is not enough to deter China.

BTW as soon as these ASEAN countries admit the seas are Chinese I'm sure they will get their piece of the pie as well. You just can't get the same amount when we are so far apart economically, militarily and historically.

India is also part of the Equation and could counterbalance China, also the problem with China is that it has the potential to explode as much as it has to succeed in 10 years because of the Demographic imbalance and stuff like Tiennamen Square type events. Of course they could import Women from Burma and shoot people to solve both, but it will be harder to keep China at bay indeed.