Chinese maritime aggression. Other East Asian nations now remember why they like America

[HissingNewt]

Have you read on Russian Military history? You do know they repulsed the Germans in WW2? See, you Amercians can't take it can you? I've said before, the Russian army now is a watershed compared to its past. Russian soldiers when used the right way will be 100% effective. General Bagration and De Tolly proved this to greater effect. Just because Russia is in a gloomy state right now is thanks to the CIA's involvement of throwing the old Soviet Union off power.

I'm pretty familiar with Russian military history. It's not very good for most of it to say the least. Human wave tactics and a harsh winter are the only thing that kept them from losing to Germany, along with large amounts of western aid and the threat from the western allies that kept significant amounts of Germans occupied in the rest of Europe. Besides that, the CIA didn't do a whole lot to overthrow the Soviets unless you're saying that Gorbachev was convinced by them to enact parastroika and glasnost and then allow their satellites to go their own way. When it comes down to it, the American military is just downright better than either the Russian or Chinese military right now. All of that manpower means nothing if they're getting bombed by drones and B-2's that they can't stop and a navy that has cut them off.

Don't forget his argument that islands don't count as territory and the ocean/island things that are being disputed are being done for self defense. Besides, the Chinese went to those waters before. Therefore, America owns the moon. For self defense. Or else you're brainwashed.

Actually, I think you're onto something here. Maybe we should let China enforce these claims so that we own the moon, and then we can work on Mars.

[Nikitn]

I'm pretty familiar with Russian military history.

Sure, if by "Russian military history" you mean your personal delusions.

Sr.witt: why are you still championing this nonsense gung-ho crap? Is it so hard for you to comprehend that China is acting just like everyone else in the region, and that the US has no business meddling in the affairs of others?

Not that I care too much, though. I mean, the more the USA meddles, the more problems it will get => it will speed its path towards its destiny of becoming a third rate power (behind the EU and China).

[HissingNewt]

Sure, if by "Russian military history" you mean your personal delusions borne out of exceptional incompetence.

Sure, if you insist. Do you have specific points, though?

[Jom]

Sure, if by "Russian military history" you mean your personal delusions borne out of exceptional incompetence.

Sr.witt: why are you still championing this nonsense gung-ho crap? Is it so hard for you to comprehend that China is acting just like everyone else in the region, and that the US has no business meddling in the affairs of others?

Not that I care too much, though. I mean, the more the USA meddles, the more problems it will get => it will speed its path towards its destiny of becoming a third rate power (behind the EU and China).

I hope China starts eroding into Russia's exclusive economic zone next. I'm sure you'd change your tune quickly enough, calling for the Russian fleet to shell Beijing.

[s.rwitt]

Sr.witt: why are you still championing this nonsense gung-ho crap? Is it so hard for you to comprehend that China is acting just like everyone else in the region, and that the US has no business meddling in the affairs of others?

Now you get to prove that "everyone else in the region" is attempting to claim the long held territory of almost every one of its neighbors. See what happens when you argue about something you don't understand? It's like that time you didn't know that the Philippines and US were allies and, when I posted a specific document proving so, were left rambling about whatever irrelevant thought popped into your head. Remember that one? It'd be great if you learned from it.

Also, we'll have to add "meddling" and "gung ho" to the list of words that you've misused. If there's any room, of course. But still, you should post more. There's nothing like a Nikitin post to bring everyone together in joint mockery with so little effort required to correct your mistakes. Its s.rwitt by the way. Not difficult.

[lemondude]

The Security Council is a part of the UN. Derp.


Lol wut? Just because you have influence doesn't mean you should have more.



Because the laws are set? If China wants to change the laws, they better convince the rest of the world then to change them.


No, its fact. Read the OP please.


Claiming large swaths of sea territory to the point of claiming some nations entire territorial claims (If you see the map of Chinese territorial claims, they plan outright claim land and the entire sea territories of Brunei and Malaysia)

Thats not self-defense in the slightest.



They signed the law, and ratified it. Thus they have to follow it.



Funny thing, to do that they would have to outclass the US Navy. What are the chances of China outclassing the US navy? Slim to none.

But i see you have changed your argument to "Might makes right"

really? The SC is part of the UN, I make note of that. I mean that it's not as simple as a student council where people vote and things decided. There's a lot more to it. It's not just a lot of people meet and things decided, the representatives are much too low rank to decide things.

Also you been calling me out on a few things, but you never really answer some things. You highlight certain parts of my argument. When I said some would suggest it's self defines you only highlighted that part but not that 1.3 billion people agree that it is and some of China's allies also agrees. You make it sound like it's just me that think so.

You just can't see that things are just opinion. The op listed things a US soldier said, yea that's not biased at all. Then maybe (if you are vietnamese) vietnamese civilians deserve to die cause they helped the Viet cong.

As to China out class US, how many people thought China would be where it is economically or militarily today? Did you 5, 10, 20 years ago? China is playing catch up, catch up is always faster than going to uncharted territory.

I haven't really changed my opinion, might is not right, but might can be irresistible.

BTW you didn't know that the UN is more of a ceremonial place than a place with real power. It's laws hold as much weight as the laws of monopoly board game. So we are pretty much arguing over things that matters none in the grand scheme of things.

[Nikitn]

sr.witt

Now you get to prove that "everyone else in the region" is attempting to claim the long held territory freshly provided for by former colonial masters of almost every one

Okay.



All the sides are bickering with each-other. Stop talking nonsense. Nobody is fooled.

[s.rwitt]

Not exactly what I was asking for, but at least you didn't have to address the rest of my post, right?

[Vanoi]

really? The SC is part of the UN, I make note of that. I mean that it's not as simple as a student council where people vote and things decided. There's a lot more to it. It's not just a lot of people meet and things decided, the representatives are much too low rank to decide things.

No you see all nations who have a permanent seat in the UN have veto powers. This includes china. One veto will destroy a Security Council Resolution.

Also you been calling me out on a few things, but you never really answer some things. You highlight certain parts of my argument. When I said some would suggest it's self defines you only highlighted that part but not that 1.3 billion people agree that it is and some of China's allies also agrees. You make it sound like it's just me that think so.

China's allies being who? And i want a source on that 1.3 billion people please. Source for China's allies supporting China too.

You just can't see that things are just opinion. The op listed things a US soldier said, yea that's not biased at all. Then maybe (if you are vietnamese) vietnamese civilians deserve to die cause they helped the Viet cong.

No, you don't understand. The Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, and all other countries in this dispute say China is bullying them.

And claiming a countries territorial waters very much counts as bullying other nations.

As to China out class US, how many people thought China would be where it is economically or militarily today? Did you 5, 10, 20 years ago? China is playing catch up, catch up is always faster than going to uncharted territory.

do you know how long it took the US to get the Navy it has now? Decades. Do you know what the US Navy also has that China does not? Experience. China is very much going in uncharted territory.

China is not going to build 11 carrier groups in 20 years. China's Navy is nothing compared to that of the US Navy and even trying to claim they could match the US Navy is laughable at best. Navies take times and experience. China has a long way to go.

BTW you didn't know that the UN is more of a ceremonial place than a place with real power. It's laws hold as much weight as the laws of monopoly board game. So we are pretty much arguing over things that matters none in the grand scheme of things.

Oh god, you know nothing about the UN. I'd stop digging a deeper hole your already in.

[lemondude]

No you see all nations who have a permanent seat in the UN have veto powers. This includes china. One veto will destroy a Security Council Resolution.


China's allies being who? And i want a source on that 1.3 billion people please. Source for China's allies supporting China too.


No, you don't understand. The Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, and all other countries in this dispute say China is bullying them.

And claiming a countries territorial waters very much counts as bullying other nations.


do you know how long it took the US to get the Navy it has now? Decades. Do you know what the US Navy also has that China does not? Experience. China is very much going in uncharted territory.

China is not going to build 11 carrier groups in 20 years. China's Navy is nothing compared to that of the US Navy and even trying to claim they could match the US Navy is laughable at best. Navies take times and experience. China has a long way to go.



Oh god, you know nothing about the UN. I'd stop digging a deeper hole your already in.

You know you want me to source things but you never do. Why don't you source what the UN can do in reality and what it has done in the past.

Sure every nation has veto, you don't think as someone who visits this forum doesn't know that SC members have veto. The veto is interesting, out of all the nations China has used it the least. You don't see why? There is no way China agrees with almost every thing, then why doesn't it use veto?

1.3 Billion, you know the population of China? More than all other dispute nations combined? Allies: Russia? The cold war stand off with Russia is over. For as much Russia distrust the Chinese, they distrust the Americans more. SCO? Taiwan? (On this issue, sort of) China is the second largest economic power and yet you don't think it has allies. Those who have money have friends.

You are joking when you said those nations said China is bullying them isn't a point of view right? You even listed the nations and the nation that is against them and yet you don't think it's a point of view. This isn't 1+ 2=3, I wrote before that even murder can be spun around to sound reasonable given the right circumstances.

Chinese navy do have a long way to go, but the thing is America has already done it means that even if America doesn't give China the Technology China still knows it could be done and the general direction. That saves tons of time of trying to figure out if something could be done and how it should be done. Check out some of the things China is doing for its navy and the different programs, then say it has no chance of one day catching up.

Experience, when America went into WW1, the army had no experience and still it won. WW2 Russian army were pretty much all new recruits, it still defeated Germans. Experience is important, but it's not everything there are a lot of factors. Besides, to be fair when was the last time America fought toe to toe with an army?


The fact that you even brought up the Korean war means how uninformed you are on the current Chinese Military. Why don't you bring up the opium war, it'll make the west seem much more powerful.

[Derpy Hooves]

You know you want me to source things but you never do. Why don't you source what the UN can do in reality and what it has done in the past.

Sure every nation has veto, you don't think as someone who visits this forum doesn't know that SC members have veto. The veto is interesting, out of all the nations China has used it the least. You don't see why? There is no way China agrees with almost every thing, then why doesn't it use veto?

1.3 Billion, you know the population of China? More than all other dispute nations combined? Allies: Russia? The cold war stand off with Russia is over. For as much Russia distrust the Chinese, they distrust the Americans more. SCO? Taiwan? (On this issue, sort of) China is the second largest economic power and yet you don't think it has allies. Those who have money have friends.

You are joking when you said those nations said China is bullying them isn't a point of view right? You even listed the nations and the nation that is against them and yet you don't think it's a point of view. This isn't 1+ 2=3, I wrote before that even murder can be spun around to sound reasonable given the right circumstances.

Chinese navy do have a long way to go, but the thing is America has already done it means that even if America doesn't give China the Technology China still knows it could be done and the general direction. That saves tons of time of trying to figure out if something could be done and how it should be done. Check out some of the things China is doing for its navy and the different programs, then say it has no chance of one day catching up.

Experience, when America went into WW1, the army had no experience and still it won. WW2 Russian army were pretty much all new recruits, it still defeated Germans. Experience is important, but it's not everything there are a lot of factors. Besides, to be fair when was the last time America fought toe to toe with an army?


The fact that you even brought up the Korean war means how uninformed you are on the current Chinese Military. Why don't you bring up the opium war, it'll make the west seem much more powerful.

The United States army DID have experience. Ever heard of the conflict in the Philippines? Or the Spanish-American War? And even without those, the US did not win WWI. WW2 Russian army won because they could throw more men into a battle than Germany could, also Germany was against the entire world except for less than a dozen countries..

[HissingNewt]

You know you want me to source things but you never do. Why don't you source what the UN can do in reality and what it has done in the past.

Sure every nation has veto, you don't think as someone who visits this forum doesn't know that SC members have veto. The veto is interesting, out of all the nations China has used it the least. You don't see why? There is no way China agrees with almost every thing, then why doesn't it use veto?

So, China not having as much influence as they could is their own fault? I don't really see a reason for them to not use the veto power to their advantage.

1.3 Billion, you know the population of China? More than all other dispute nations combined? Allies: Russia? The cold war stand off with Russia is over. For as much Russia distrust the Chinese, they distrust the Americans more. SCO? Taiwan? (On this issue, sort of) China is the second largest economic power and yet you don't think it has allies. Those who have money have friends.

The US having a larger population doesn't give us the right to absorb Canada. Besides that, the US also has tons of money and a far superior military, so naturally the nations in that area will like us more than the country claiming their land.

You are joking when you said those nations said China is bullying them isn't a point of view right? You even listed the nations and the nation that is against them and yet you don't think it's a point of view. This isn't 1+ 2=3, I wrote before that even murder can be spun around to sound reasonable given the right circumstances.

It's less a point of view and more of a fact that China is bullying them. China has no legitimate claims to the territorial waters of countries hundreds of kilometers away. They've even acknowledged this by signing the international laws that say that (and continuing to be a party to those laws).

Chinese navy do have a long way to go, but the thing is America has already done it means that even if America doesn't give China the Technology China still knows it could be done and the general direction. That saves tons of time of trying to figure out if something could be done and how it should be done. Check out some of the things China is doing for its navy and the different programs, then say it has no chance of one day catching up.

As shown in WW1, technology can only do so much when a nation doesn't know how to apply it. China doesn't have the naval experience that the US does, and will not match the US navy (or even the British navy) for a while, until they can build modern ships and test their doctrines in an actual war to gain some experience and reevaluate strategies.

Experience, when America went into WW1, the army had no experience and still it won. WW2 Russian army were pretty much all new recruits, it still defeated Germans. Experience is important, but it's not everything there are a lot of factors. Besides, to be fair when was the last time America fought toe to toe with an army?

Considering the American contribution to WW1 was practically irrelevant, I'd say it's generous to call us a winner. Besides that, the Russians only defeated the Germans through attrition and human waves, which is pretty much exactly what has been advocated in this thread when people are talking about how large the PLA is. It doesn't matter if enemy bombers and drones can fly around at will above that army. China doesn't have the military to enforce any of these claims unless they can convince the US to allow its allies to face China alone.

The fact that you even brought up the Korean war means how uninformed you are on the current Chinese Military. Why don't you bring up the opium war, it'll make the west seem much more powerful.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

[Heinz Guderian]

The United States army DID have experience. Ever heard of the conflict in the Philippines? Or the Spanish-American War? And even without those, the US did not win WWI. WW2 Russian army won because they could throw more men into a battle than Germany could, also Germany was against the entire world except for less than a dozen countries..

i find this statement problematic and not a little simplistic. There are probably a hundred reasons why Germany lost on the Ostfront not just putting more Slav bodies in the way of 98-K bullets. More credit should be given to the Russians

[Condottiere 40K]

The actual problem is that the Chinese are asking for too much territory. While it is considered within their right to exploit the seabeds neighbouring their mainlaind, stretching it towards the international shipping routes alarms not only the countries with claims in the same area, but Japan and South Korea who need an undisputed access to their markets and energy suppliers, and therefore their patron, America.

The Japanese have already established a long term plan to beef up their naval forces, to protect those maritime areas they consider vital to their survival.

[sephodwyrm]

The actual problem is that the Chinese are asking for too much territory. .

The actual problem is that the Japanese are asking for too much territory.

The thing belongs to Taiwan.

[lemondude]

So, China not having as much influence as they could is their own fault? I don't really see a reason for them to not use the veto power to their advantage.



The US having a larger population doesn't give us the right to absorb Canada. Besides that, the US also has tons of money and a far superior military, so naturally the nations in that area will like us more than the country claiming their land.



It's less a point of view and more of a fact that China is bullying them. China has no legitimate claims to the territorial waters of countries hundreds of kilometers away. They've even acknowledged this by signing the international laws that say that (and continuing to be a party to those laws).



As shown in WW1, technology can only do so much when a nation doesn't know how to apply it. China doesn't have the naval experience that the US does, and will not match the US navy (or even the British navy) for a while, until they can build modern ships and test their doctrines in an actual war to gain some experience and reevaluate strategies.



Considering the American contribution to WW1 was practically irrelevant, I'd say it's generous to call us a winner. Besides that, the Russians only defeated the Germans through attrition and human waves, which is pretty much exactly what has been advocated in this thread when people are talking about how large the PLA is. It doesn't matter if enemy bombers and drones can fly around at will above that army. China doesn't have the military to enforce any of these claims unless they can convince the US to allow its allies to face China alone.



I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

The veto is a power reserved for the strong and the secure. Just because certain things can be done doesn't mean they should. It is China's fault for having too little influence and be so dependent on foreign countries. Today this trend is finally reversing, that certain people are getting uncomfortable.

China signed off on the law because China was depended on foreign investments. Also China had no navy to speak of at that time, even if China did get that sea, it would have no ships to patrol it so it would be useless.

Yet Japan completely destroyed the Russian fleets in the Russo-Japan war. Experience is important, but experiences comes from many forms. Right now China is no match for the US or even close no doubt.

If China does go to war which I doubt, China will not face off against the US. In the off chance that war happens China would have made sure US won't get involved. There are many ways of achieving that in the right circumstances.

The last point was just someone mentioned superior number of troops in the Korean war couldn't defeat US and I mentioned that China was so backwards at that time that it was more surprising the US didn't push China out of Korea with ease.

[Adar]

sr.witt

Okay.



All the sides are bickering with each-other. Stop talking nonsense. Nobody is fooled.

Do you notice that everyone else got line based on islands or continental shelfs while China just drew a red line around the whole sea?

Not to mention that the republic of China previously have stated the Paracel islands as their southernmost border.

[Mangalore]

Do you notice that everyone else got line based on islands or continental shelfs while China just drew a red line around the whole sea?

Not to mention that the republic of China previously have stated the Paracel islands as their southernmost border.

Technically they claim the Spratley Islands as Chinese and expand their maritime border from them. This is actually based on historical facts that those islands had already been claimed by Qing China though it is also a historical fact that the territorial disputes with Vietnam and others were never resolved back then which is why they still exist today.

[Adar]

Technically they claim the Spratley Islands as Chinese and expand their maritime border from them. This is actually based on historical facts that those islands had already been claimed by Qing China though it is also a historical fact that the territorial disputes with Vietnam and others were never resolved back then which is why they still exist today.

If Qing China sets a historical precedence, then the line would be in the Gulf of Tonkin as of the peace made with France in 1887.

If they settled for the Paracel island, then they would be playing in the same league as everyone else in the area but the 9 dash line is just stupid.

[Vanoi]

You know you want me to source things but you never do. Why don't you source what the UN can do in reality and what it has done in the past.

You never ask. And no, its your job to source that. You were the one to claim it was nothing but a ceremonial place than a real power. How about you back that up?

Sure every nation has veto, you don't think as someone who visits this forum doesn't know that SC members have veto. The veto is interesting, out of all the nations China has used it the least. You don't see why? There is no way China agrees with almost every thing, then why doesn't it use veto?

Ask China. Maybe they don't agree with the proposal, but don't disagree either. its called abstaining.

1.3 Billion, you know the population of China? More than all other dispute nations combined?

So? The US has more population than Canada, does that give justification for the US to take over Canada?

Allies: Russia? The cold war stand off with Russia is over. For as much Russia distrust the Chinese, they distrust the Americans more.

Thats not an ally. The cold War may be over, but Russia and China are not allies in the slightest. Wgere is Russia supporting China's claims in the South China Sea?

SCO? Taiwan? (On this issue, sort of)

You mean the same country China has threatened to go to war over numerous times? I don't think so.

China is the second largest economic power and yet you don't think it has allies. Those who have money have friends.

You are joking when you said those nations said China is bullying them isn't a point of view right? You even listed the nations and the nation that is against them and yet you don't think it's a point of view. This isn't 1+ 2=3, I wrote before that even murder can be spun around to sound reasonable given the right circumstances.

Do i have to explain to you again how claiming another nation's territorial waters is very much bullying the nation.

Since you sitll refuse to accept the OP here is another story
.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8AS05E20121129

Boarding vessels in the disputed seas? That is both illegal and very much bullying. China cannot board vessels that are not in their territorial waters.

Chinese navy do have a long way to go, but the thing is America has already done it means that even if America doesn't give China the Technology China still knows it could be done and the general direction. That saves tons of time of trying to figure out if something could be done and how it should be done.

Just because it can be done, doe snot mean it makes it easier to do it. A good example is nuclear weapons. Everyone knows you can make them. Does that mean they are now easy to make? No.

Check out some of the things China is doing for its navy and the different programs, then say it has no chance of one day catching up.

Navies like time to build. China has a long way to go. Is that hard to understand?

Experience, when America went into WW1, the army had no experience and still it won.

Americas didn't win WWI. Britain, France, and the US won WWI. And the Ss went in at the last minute and didn't help out too much. The US Army in WWI sucked. It still used outdated tactics that caused over 100,000 of it soldiers to die in less than a year. Because of the lack of experience the US had many soldiers died.

WW2 Russian army were pretty much all new recruits,

Source.

it still defeated Germans.

While they had the Allies helping them, and while they lost millions do soldiers. Millions. Lack of experience is one reason why the Russians did so bad at the beginning of the war.

Experience is important, but it's not everything there are a lot of factors. Besides, to be fair when was the last time America fought toe to toe with an army?

Iraq? Twice? Vietnam? Have you ignored the last 4 wars the US has been involved in?

The fact that you even brought up the Korean war means how uninformed you are on the current Chinese Military.

I never brought up the Korean War with you. I was just showing how just because China has millions of soldiers, doesn't make it the best Army in the world. Numbers do not mean anything.